[Targander]

Because of what happened to "Tiny Tina" in the other post, I thought Id bring up the subject about what a owner/person would allow in their kennels or property.

I can really understand what this family is going through because of what happened to me. I just thank God that I didnt have to put the pups down because of one Dog Aggressive male that I almost bought...

He was a yellow Can. CH/MH and was NEVER told by his owner he was VERY agressive toward pups/young dogs (Jane was his 2nd or 3rd owner :roll: ). Well, found out that evening when he went after 2 of my 4 month old while airing. Prit near killed one and chewed up the other pretty good, both needing to be hospitalized. Talk about being PO'd :evil: :evil: That male went WAY out of his way just to attack those poor pups and I just barely could stop him with the collar on high. Asked the owner about why this would happen and she answered..."Didn't I tell you? He gets "grumpy" around other dogs and puppies..." :x :evil:
She knew me well enough and understood I have young dogs and occasionally pups at my place.

Needless to say, he was taken back and I lost my deposit.

So, the question: How many of you, knowing you have an Dog Aggressive Dog, still keep him or her and why?

 

[spaightlabs]

Had one that was puppy aggressive - 8yo male we had adopted. Couldn't find another home to place him in where we could be sure it wouldn't happena gain, so unfortunately had to put him down.

Wasn't willing to take a chance that he'd possibly maim or kill someone else's pup, or that he might turn aggressive on a person...

 

[msdaisey]

I had one very talented, competitive AA dog, who loved all other dogs (especially puppies) but hated my other AA dog. I just kept them separated completely until I couldn't justify the time spent airing them separately, then found a new home for him.

Since he was never aggressive toward any other dog, I was not worried. Don't know what I would do with one who didn't like anyone else.

 

[Topgun]

I understand that this relates to dog aggression, but let's expand it to just aggression in general. This is a good question and I am anxious to hear the reasoning for keeping such a dog. My 10 year old daughter was jerked off of her bike by a dog being walked by its owner. Had it been ANY of my own dogs, I would have quickly euthanized it with my gun. As it stands, I didn't know that my daughter was hurt until we got back home and I blood trailed her into the back bathroom where she was washing her foot with a three inch gash in it. The people did the right thing and took care of medical, etc, but I still would like to kill the dog. I heard after the fact, that this wasn't the first time that the dog had bitten someone. Interestingly, I just saw the dog being walked about 30 minutes ago.......with a muzzle on it.

 

[Kris Hunt]

I've had 2 aggressive dogs. The first one was only aggressive towards puppies and injured a pup of ours much in the same way Tina was killed. The pup survived, but it was very scary. That dog left the next day to a one dog only family and did very well.

I also had a fear aggressive dog. I kept that dog alive for nearly 7 years because I felt as if I had failed the dog somewhere along the line (I got him at 8 weeks old). I felt sorry for the dog and I thought I could control his environment well enough that we would not have a problem. That dog eventually bit me and he was euthanized that same day.

I think there are a various number of reasons people use to keep the dog - we're attached, the dog didn't mean to bite, it won't happen again, etc etc.

I've had neighbors with 2 mean dogs, one was a Rotty and the latest and greatest is a Pitbull who has come after me twice. So I know how scary it is but I also know the family most likely loves that dog very much and just doesn't know what to do.

Kris
Blacktail Labradors

 

[DRAKEHAVEN]

Thinking alot of the reason for keeping a truly dog agressive dog comes down to the value of that dog.

I know of some FC's left to their own devices that would pretty much injure any dog they came in contact with.

In my opinion these are about the worst traits you would want to reproduce.

There are some breeds, most German in origin that are never given contact with the same sex. Because although they would be ok with the opposite sex, the built in rank drive forces them to prove their dominance.

Most of the aggressive behaviors I have seen in retrievers could have been extinguished at an early age if the owners knew what to look for and then did not dismiss bad behaviors. Then when they do see the behavior, they fail to correct it properly. Any signs of aggression should be corrected WITH VIGOR so to speak.

If you are keeping one around it is your responsibilty to protect that dog from it's self. NEVER assume it safe to let the even have incidental contact with any other dog.

Retriever people/trainers have it easy.
Talk to some protection/Schutzhund trainers about dog management......no airing the whole truck at once that's for sure.

John
________
Mercedes-Benz C112

 

[WRL]

I had an aggressive dog.

He lived to be 10 years old. The enviroment was always monitored. He was NEVER left unattended.

Probably the best hunting dog we've ever owned.

We kept him because we "could". He was never aggressive with the family although my son did corner him once and then fell on him. He bit him on the top of the head. He was 8 years old at the time.

It was more of a fear-biter reaction. He was also trying to avoid the toddler at the time.

I wouldn't do it again. It takes a HUGE toll on everyone involved and all it takes is one unsupervised time.

WRL

 

[Targander]

DRAKEHAVEN wrote:

Most of the aggressive behaviors I have seen in retrievers could have been extinguished at an ewarly age if the owners knew what to look for and the did not dismiss bad behaviors. then when they do see the behavior, they fail to correct it properly. Any signs of aggression should be corrected WITH VIGOR so to speak.

I AGREE 110%. Great post, John.

Just remember (although Im NOT talking about breeds other than "retrievers" here); the Labrador/Golden breed are NOT "guard" dogs by nature as are the Pointers, Chessy's, GSD's ect....these are a WHOLE different story because of their breeding.

 

[2tall]

And sometimes you get into a situation that has no good answer. I volunteered to take in a foster from a local rescue group. I got the third degree because my dog was an unneutered 12 month old male. They "decided" that my dog was good enough, and that I was "good enough with dogs" that I would be an acceptable foster home. They brought me a 2 year old male, recently neutered, who had obviously lived from pillar to post for his entire life. He was at first kind, appreciative, but the next thing I knew he bit my Indy on the face in a play time. So I started separating them, and also began to realize he had real food aggression issues. I was afraid to touch him after filling the bowl, he growled really mean. I called the rescue people and told them I did not want to keep this one any more, and that they reallly ought to look hard at his issues. They called me back, thanked me for working with him, and had me deliver him to one of their homes, but did not let me speak with the "adopt or". I sincerely hope it all went well, but I will always worry about the aggression I saw in that dog. Sadly, I am now gunshy of fostering any more.

 

[YardleyLabs]

My daughter and her husband adopted a 6-month old pit bull mix (what we call a Trenton Terrier) as their first dog. He was intelligent, highly trainable, and a wonderful pet. They took him to obedience school and were careful to never play with him in a manner that might encourage aggression.

When he was about 1 1/2 years old, he attacked a Jack Russell that he had played with routinely for over a year. No warning, no lifted fur, no growl. Just as he was about to give the terrier a death shake I managed to pry the dog out of his jaws while my son-in-law held his hind legs up in the air.

They arranged training for him with a trainer specializing in aggression. While at my house the day before training was to begin, the dog stood up on his hind legs, placing his forepaws on the shoulders of another friend who was visiting and began to growl aggessively in the man's face. Once again we were able to pull him off and no damage was done. My kids called the trainer and described the incident. The trainer said he was beyond salvage. They took him to his regular vet to put him down. Before he was even stuck with the needle, the dog bit the vet's assistant in the face.

Needess to say, this was a traumatic experience for everyone. To make it worse, when they told the director of the rescue agency, she attacked them for having euthanized the dog and tried to have them blacklisted from ever adopting another dog again. She said that they should have returned the dog to her and she would have taken it to PetSmart and found it another home! Sometimes we have to make difficult decisions to protect those who may come into contact with our animals. The alternative of total confinement is seldom a favor to the dog and foisting such a dog on someone else without warning is immoral.

 

[DRAKEHAVEN]

LeAnne,

Some of those bad behaviors that people do not recognize seem very innocent. Example, dogs barking when a stranger comes to their territory.

At Camp Drakehaven barking is not allowed. It is dealt with very seriously, but never more seriously than when it is directed at another person. Why ?? Because this is one of the first signs of a dog taking control. The dog is saying I don't like this and let's see what I can do about it. In my mind, my dogs DO NOT get an opinion on such matters.
They are to be seen and not heard. It is my job as ALPHA MALE to sound the alarm if it's warranted. My dogs are NEVER allowed to greet house guests. That is the job of the Alpha. Their job is to sit and wait for me to tell them "this person is ok, come check him out"
Letting dogs greet guests is just another step in letting them thionk they get to make decisions. I'll bark at this person, I'll growl at that new dog, I'll bite that child.

What do ya think ? Micro management ?

John
________
Sports 800

 

[Judy Chute]

Our beginner agility class Wednesday nites..for just turning 10 month old Golden, "Sebec".
There is a female Australian Cattle Dog in the class. She has seemed to have issues with other dogs. Lunges if another dog happens to come too close, or as we are all standing around listening to our instructor.

It was enough of an issue that the owner has been keeping her on short leash between exercises and making sure she is unable to reach another dog.

A couple of weeks ago, she came at "Sebec"..he quickly got out of there and back to me..I grabbed ahold of him.

He was doing our turn at a little mini sequence and she got away from her handler and came after him. Actually, it got kind of messy..a young Newfie" with a junior handler broke away from him joining in the inappropriate growling, snarling..chasing. and one other..I think a Border Collie..but not positive. It all happened so quickly. I hung on to Sebec and the instructor ended up grabbing him, too, telling me to let go as she swung him around as the cattle dog and or the Newfie was still trying to get at him..and she was worried he actually might be hurt. What a mess..she and I were both being barriers to protect him.

After that I was asked to keep "Sebec" far away from her..and where she really could not see him ..why?, my dog is fine.. it should be her problem.. Oh, well...he loves the class so....

Then..a week ago this last Wednesday..we were all standing, again, in a kind of circle while Anne instructed us. Now, this is a good distance and Sebec was not seeing her due to our position.

Really, he could care less about the other dogs..I have found..no matter what we are training. He just wants to do the training and really focuses on that. In agility class, when he arrives, he can't wait to go on the floor and be asked to do something..anything..and his obstacle training. He really does ignore the other dogs.

Well, all of a sudden the cattle dog was lunging forward..bumped right into Anne, the instructor ..and bit her leg.

Anne yelled..something like, ouch! she bit me.. Owner says, oh I'm sorry..she did not really bite you. Yes, she did..as Anne rolled up her pant leg and showed her... "and it does hurt". Well, the owner says, ...she was trying to get to the "Golden".. my Sebec.

So...this last week..was the last of a set. The cattle dog person is not coming for the next set but will be back in the spring . Anyway ...on the way out after class, she said to me, "just as well that we are unable to come the next set of classes as "pouch" is coming into season".. :shock:

She has an issue with other dogs, bit the instructor because she was in the way of her path to another dog? ...and she is coming into heat :roll: ...and the woman really did not seem to "get it".

 

[Targander]

People, especially the "kind heart-eds" need to learn and accept what their "limitations" are for each individual dog on the dog's own merits. Not every one is equipped (mentally or physically) to take on a dominant breed of dog. Nor do they usually see the "signs" of what is coming next.

I tell every new foster to "be honest" with what you can handle and let the rescue or H.S know which breed you are most accustomed to. This in the long road will divert most incidents. Mix breeds are normally a crap shoot, depending on which breed trait they follow.

Let's face it...if your accustomed to the "retriever" breeds, taking on a GSD, D. Pincher or Akita for a foster is just plan thoughtless.

Stay with the breed you are most educated with.

Now, back to the Retriever breed and the "incidences" :wink:

 

[DL]

There should be some subcatagories to put dog aggressive dogs into instead of lumping them all together, and saying that they all should be destroyed.

A dog that seeks out and kills little puppies could be just one of the categories.

Food possessive/dog aggressive dogs might be another.

Old dogs that snap at young dogs when they are pounced on could be another.

The athleticism of the dog would make a difference also. The dog might be a couch potato, or have little legs like a bassett hound. Would you put done an old bassett hound just because it developed some sort of dog aggression. Personally I'm not afraid of bassett hounds.

Whether or not you keep one would depend on how you keep it. If you got them constantly fighting in the kitchen, that would be a factor. Some dogs stay in kennel runs, and some dogs live in one dog families.

 

[Targander]

LeAnne,

Some of those bad behaviors that people do not recognize seem very innocent. Example, dogs barking when a stranger comes to their territory.

At Camp Drakehaven barking is not allowed. It is dealt with very seriously, but never more seriously than when it is directed at another person. Why ?? Because this is one of the first signs of a dog taking control. The dog is saying I don't like this and let's see what I can do about it. In my mind, my dogs DO NOT get an opinion on such matters.
They are to be seen and not heard. It is my job as ALPHA MALE to sound the alarm if it's warranted. My dogs are NEVER allowed to greet house guests. That is the job of the Alpha. Their job is to sit and wait for me to tell them "this person is ok, come check him out"
Letting dogs greet guests is just another step in letting them thionk they get to make decisions. I'll bark at this person, I'll growl at that new dog, I'll bite that child.

What do ya think ? Micro management ?

John

Boy John, your words are very refreshing <BIG GRIN>

Mirco Managing is the ONLY way with owning dogs 8)

We need to meet someday and discuss our "opinions". They sure dont seem to differ on animal behavior 8)

 

[Ken Archer]

Let's face it...if your accustomed to the "retriever" breeds, taking on a GSD, D. Pincher or Akita for a foster is just plan thoughtless.

LeAnne, I guess we have just been extremely lucky. Over the years we have had two Dobermans - a female and a neutered male. I would have trusted my youngest grandchild with either one of them. In fact, my oldest granddaughter when she was 4 or 5 would literally bury our female Doberman with dirt and she would just lay there and let her do it. The male we have now might lick you to death, but that is about all. He's a lover not a fighter.

 

[DRAKEHAVEN]

Ken,

Doubt it's a matter of luck. You most likely got a well bred one.
Those are the one's that are confident enough to not see a child as a threat.
Sure you have also not allowed him to operate on his own agenda.

If you are 1/2 as particular of your "pets" as you competition dogs I'm sure he's beyond scrutiny.

John
________
digital vaporizer

 

[Targander]

John,

Another thought from your previous post...

I do NOT/WILL NOT allow my dogs/pups to JUMP, BARK (excessively), BOLT or GROWL/aggression (at other dogs and surely not at people). They are showed immediately that these "social" injustices are Never acceptable. No matter what it takes. This is, I believe the biggest problem most people have. Not getting the "point" across. For what ever reason. I feel MANY dogs are put down becouse of indeciciveness on the owners part.

They don't call me "Drill Sargent" for nothing...lol

Ken, for some reason :roll: Im quite certain you laid the "law" down on your "non retrievers" on their social status from the get-go :wink:

You can train any Dobs I have....any day :!:

Still Fence Jumpin reguards,

 

[Targander]

There should be some subcatagories to put dog aggressive dogs into instead of lumping them all together, and saying that they all should be destroyed.

A dog that seeks out and kills little puppies could be just one of the categories.

Food possessive/dog aggressive dogs might be another.

Old dogs that snap at young dogs when they are pounced on could be another.

The athleticism of the dog would make a difference also. The dog might be a couch potato, or have little legs like a bassett hound. Would you put done an old bassett hound just because it developed some sort of dog aggression. Personally I'm not afraid of bassett hounds.

Whether or not you keep one would depend on how you keep it. If you got them constantly fighting in the kitchen, that would be a factor. Some dogs stay in kennel runs, and some dogs live in one dog families.

Oh there is DL...There is (subcatagories) :shock:

http://www.bluedogtraining.com/dog-bite-expert-witness.html

Now Iv been to her seminars. She determines the dogs inert "aggression" by the "depth" of there BITE...take a look and give Sara a call. Here is your Politically Correct Animal Behaviorist... :?

 

[DRAKEHAVEN]

Camp Drakehaven is a NO GRAB ASS ZONE

Puppies are taught from the get go that airing time is not bumper car time.

John
________
XL175