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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
I find the difference between how Lardy advocates teaching blinds and Farmer advocates teaching blinds quite interesting.

From Lardy's manual: Lardy starts with identifying the pile of one blind, walking back with the dog 25 yards, and lining him to the blind.

He asks the dog to finish in the front position, takes the bumper, the handler walks back 25 yards and casts the dog to the blind pile. He keeps doing this, using the same blind pile, so he can get back to about 150-200 yards. Then he quits for the day.

The next day he will try to run the first blind cold, and then identify a second blind, and then repeat the procedure from the first blind. The third day he will try to run the first 2 blinds cold and repeat the procedure on the third blind.

Two things from Lardy: 1. He teaches the outer blinds (suggested 125-150 yards) first and then a middle blind which is slightly longer (150-200 yds suggested); 2. He says not to repeat a blind.

Danny Farmer starts with 3 blind piles with white bumpers in a field. (150-200 yards). He says just kick that dog off by sending to the middle blind. Follow the dog out into the field and handle (in a very wide corridor) if needed. After that first blind, Farmer, like Lardy, says leave dog in remote position, step back 10-20 yards, and send him to the same blind. If dog is successful, step back some more, and cast dog again to the same bumper. Repeat with the next two bumper piles on same day unless dog has significant trouble on the first blind.

So, this is interesting to me because of the differences:

1. Lardy identifies the pile for each blind; Farmer does not.

2. Lardy says don't send the dog back to the same blind; Farmer says send back to the same blind THREE times. And then to the second blind pile on the same day THREE times if the dog did okay on the first one.

3. Both say use attrition at first.

So, do you usually use the Lardy or Farmer method? Why or why not? (Yes, I know there are other prerequisites from each trainer before you get to this point that will affect the dog's performance on this....)

Do you change your method if it doesn't seem to be working for a particular dog? Have you used one method to train several dogs and then permanently switched to the other method? Or do you use a hybrid/totally different method?

Just curious--don't want info about which trainer won X amount of times. Bill Russell won 11 NBA championships, and Michael Jordan won 6, but that doesn't necessarily mean Russell was the better player. :)
 

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You do lots of studying. It’s very commendable. In this case, I am familiar with both Lardy and Farmer’s way of doing things. I have heard them discuss with each other about this exact thing in one of the Farmer/Lardy symposium videos.
Neither is right or wrong.

If I remember correctly, Danny does say that he can do it his way because he has done his way on 1000’s of dogs. So he knows what he is looking for and how to get dogs thru it.

Someone should correct me if I’m wrong, but I believe Farmer even agrees in that discussion that pattern blinds (aka Lardys way) is probably more suitable for a novice trainer.
 

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I find the difference between how Lardy advocates teaching blinds and Farmer advocates teaching blinds quite interesting.

From Lardy's manual: Lardy starts with identifying the pile of one blind, walking back with the dog 25 yards, and lining him to the blind.

He asks the dog to finish in the front position, takes the bumper, the handler walks back 25 yards and casts the dog to the blind pile. He keeps doing this, using the same blind pile, so he can get back to about 150-200 yards. Then he quits for the day.

The next day he will try to run the first blind cold, and then identify a second blind, and then repeat the procedure from the first blind. The third day he will try to run the first 2 blinds cold and repeat the procedure on the third blind.

Two things from Lardy: 1. He teaches the outer blinds (suggested 125-150 yards) first and then a middle blind which is slightly longer (150-200 yds suggested); 2. He says not to repeat a blind.

Danny Farmer starts with 3 blind piles with white bumpers in a field. (150-200 yards). He says just kick that dog off by sending to the middle blind. Follow the dog out into the field and handle (in a very wide corridor) if needed. After that first blind, Farmer, like Lardy, says leave dog in remote position, step back 10-20 yards, and send him to the same blind. If dog is successful, step back some more, and cast dog again to the same bumper. Repeat with the next two bumper piles on same day unless dog has significant trouble on the first blind.

So, this is interesting to me because of the differences:

1. Lardy identifies the pile for each blind; Farmer does not.

2. Lardy says don't send the dog back to the same blind; Farmer says send back to the same blind THREE times. And then to the second blind pile on the same day THREE times if the dog did okay on the first one.

3. Both say use attrition at first.

So, do you usually use the Lardy or Farmer method? Why or why not? (Yes, I know there are other prerequisites from each trainer before you get to this point that will affect the dog's performance on this....)

Do you change your method if it doesn't seem to be working for a particular dog? Have you used one method to train several dogs and then permanently switched to the other method? Or do you use a hybrid/totally different method?

Just curious--don't want info about which trainer won X amount of times. Bill Russell won 11 NBA championships, and Michael Jordan won 6, but that doesn't necessarily mean Russell was the better player. :)
What you are describing is pattern blinds, not blinds.
I prefer Lardy's method of teaching pattern blinds
 

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Some of us like to, as ESPN puts it, "never graduate" from novice with our pattern blinds.

Now the Tony Robbins' motivational method for dogs running "hot" blinds probably wouldn't work...though it's certainly got attrition.


MG
 

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Discussion Starter · #5 ·
If I remember correctly, Danny does say that he can do it his way because he has done his way on 1000’s of dogs. So he knows what he is looking for and how to get dogs thru it.

Someone should correct me if I’m wrong, but I believe Farmer even agrees in that discussion that pattern blinds (aka Lardys way) is probably more suitable for a novice trainer.
Thanks for the info about Lardy's method probably being better for the novice trainer.

I was wrong in my original post when I wrote Lardy says don't go back to the same blind. He just does it differently than Farmer. He instructs to go back to the same blind by moving back 25 yards each time until getting back to the baseline about 125-150 yards for the outside blinds. So the blind would be repeated 4-5 times the first time run. I knew that but I didn't state it correctly.
 

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As someone who has followed Lardy's general training philosophy and progression I find Farmers approach very interesting. Not even so much the difference in the patterns vs no patterns but how they deal with marking and when to handle/correct versus not. Lardy wanting things to be very clear cut and black and white while Farmer allowing a dog to be a little more "free" if you will in its marking.

Lardy tends to handle quicker and then correct for cast refusals while Farmer seems to let the dog make a decision and then give them a correction, even direct pressure which Lardy says he will almost never do.

These of course are very big generalizations and I'm sure they both adjust as needed and have lots of tools in their tool box as great handlers and trainers.
 
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Thanks for the info about Lardy's method probably being better for the novice trainer.

I was wrong in my original post when I wrote Lardy says don't go back to the same blind. He just does it differently than Farmer. He instructs to go back to the same blind by moving back 25 yards each time until getting back to the baseline about 125-150 yards for the outside blinds. So the blind would be repeated 4-5 times the first time run. I knew that but I didn't state it correctly.
As someone mentioned earlier, keep in mind, Lardy is not running "cold blinds," he is running what is called "pattern blinds." These pattern blinds are something he is teaching the dog. It's almost like a confidence builder for the dog...to learn to go as sent and run out into the field when sent. Then as the dog progresses, you will see that lardy likes to add in marks in the pattern blind field and the dog still "remembers" where those pattern blinds are. Danny on the other hand, starts by just running cold blinds per the article that Sylvia attached. He just skips the pattern blind step.
 

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Discussion Starter · #9 ·
As someone mentioned earlier, keep in mind, Lardy is not running "cold blinds," he is running what is called "pattern blinds." These pattern blinds are something he is teaching the dog. It's almost like a confidence builder for the dog...to learn to go as sent and run out into the field when sent. Then as the dog progresses, you will see that lardy likes to add in marks in the pattern blind field and the dog still "remembers" where those pattern blinds are. Danny on the other hand, starts by just running cold blinds per the article that Sylvia attached. He just skips the pattern blind step.
I should have posted I was comparing what I read about training on the first blinds in the field.

The first field blinds for Lardy are pattern blinds and the first field blind for Farmer is actually one initial cold blind, followed by twice repeating that blind, then a new initial cold blind with two repeats, etc.

That is what I was trying to contrast and hear opinions about. I actually tried one after the other (different days) with my dog after doing the preliminary work as described in Lardy's manual and the Farmer article and one of his DVDs.

I guess you could say Farmer's initial blind actually turns into a pattern blind, at least for the next two attempts. And, to me, with Farmer, you actually have a built-in diversion when, after doing the same blind 3 times, you kick the dog off to an entirely new, different blind. My dog wanted to go back to the spot she had just been to 3 times so it was a diversion or, maybe, more properly called suction?

I enjoyed trying both methods. We are still on the transition into cold blinds because, in a new field, she often will break toward what would be bird cover if we were upland hunting. Thanks to all for your input.
 

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I should have posted I was comparing what I read about training on the first blinds in the field.

The first field blinds for Lardy are pattern blinds and the first field blind for Farmer is actually one initial cold blind, followed by twice repeating that blind, then a new initial cold blind with two repeats, etc.

That is what I was trying to contrast and hear opinions about. I actually tried one after the other (different days) with my dog after doing the preliminary work as described in Lardy's manual and the Farmer article and one of his DVDs.

I guess you could say Farmer's initial blind actually turns into a pattern blind, at least for the next two attempts. And, to me, with Farmer, you actually have a built-in diversion when, after doing the same blind 3 times, you kick the dog off to an entirely new, different blind. My dog wanted to go back to the spot she had just been to 3 times so it was a diversion or, maybe, more properly called suction?

I enjoyed trying both methods. We are still on the transition into cold blinds because, in a new field, she often will break toward what would be bird cover if we were upland hunting. Thanks to all for your input.
How it was explained to me was with Farmers method, the dog learns to handle. He becomes comfortable with the situation, and has a good number of whistles built into him. He learns eventually, he gets the reward ( bird) quicker, the straighter he runs.
Each of the 3 blind piles start off as a true cold blind. It is very important the dog be well schooled with prior steps i oh f his program before starting this step.
Rear Ms McClurs post and link.

I think it’s a very enjoyable way for both dog and handler to introduce “cold Blinds”
 
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I've done it both ways and haven't found a lot of difference in the end result. I no longer do pattern blinds. For me, there is probably more value in Lardy's blind drills than the actual pattern blinds.
 
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Discussion Starter · #12 ·
How it was explained to me was with Farmers method, the dog learns to handle. He becomes comfortable with the situation, and has a good number of whistles built into him. He learns eventually, he gets the reward ( bird) quicker, the straighter he runs.
Each of the 3 blind piles start off as a true cold blind. It is very important the dog be well schooled with prior steps i oh f his program before starting this step.
Rear Ms McClurs post and link.

I think it’s a very enjoyable way for both dog and handler to introduce “cold Blinds”
Yes. I have read the Farmer Blind procedure many times. I have a copy of it in my car. :) But you are so correct in that I had to handle my dog many times on the day I ran Farmer's method. It was fun.
 

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Eventually though, I think you will notice as you follow the dog, the number of whistles decreases.
Eventually, you won’t automatically follow the dog on that first bumper of a 3 bumper pile.
Eventually, you may only have 1 or 2 whistles and a great initial line on that first bumper, while staying at the line. You will see the dog line the other remaining 2 bumpers in that pile.
Finally, you will notice on regularity, you stay at the line, and the dog 2 or 3 whistles (or less) each of the 3 blind piles!
All of a sudden, your dog is running pretty nice true cold blinds! If a situation arises you have to Handel, and things get sloppy, the dog stays comfortable with being HANDLED! You will have great confidence you will get him to the bird, without him giving up, and becoming “ self employed” as you sometimes witness with other dogs/ handlers.
For me, it was the most enjoyable step with Flinches training! I also noticed a true bond between me and my dog. We both knew the game, and had good confidence.. Both of us happy, enjoying the work….
 
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The person that taught me this wasn’t Farmer. I had no idea Farmer used this method till I stumbled on his training tips page , and read “Introduction to cold blinds”.
To me, it was Cherylon’s method. She didn’t learn it from Farmer, probably Carr, but I’m not sure if that. Maybe Mis Judy Aycock!
 
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i use the "farmer" method but was taught from someone else, now my training uses more taught blinds and pattern blinds and the differences i see in our dogs are that his with the "lardy" style give better initial lines and mine with the "farmer" method cast and handle better. I think both methods work great and serve a purpose
 

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your talking yard work basics. one line to piles (salting it--toss bumps to pile in front of dog).other is line to pile then remote cast. All of the yard work and basics will be all the separate layers to teaching a dog blind retrieve. all of these prescribed programs have the same goals. it is better to under do it than over do it. in the last 20 yrs folks rely on ABC,123 training. I think it be best to look at task first not program, and your dog will teach you more than any book or humane could-if you allow yourself. A training flow chart is nice to reference, study(Mike Lardys covers all bases and it works). But not stone tablet
 
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