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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
So I've started with the Hillmann puppy program, it's worked ok so far but now my pup is just excitable and almost obsessed (not in a good way, crying and squealing because she wants it so bad) with the bumper. I feel she would've had this crazy desire without me adding fuel to the fire, so to say. Now her manners are sketchy and she is not responsive whatsoever if I try to distract her from the bumper. She does have a good sit, recall, and heel/walking on lead.

So she's 5 months at the moment and was wondering which program would be better to continue with?

Which is easier to understand and follow?
Which would benifit HER more?
Which method have you used?
Which is better for a beginner to implement?
 

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I use TRT. I recommend it. Others like Smartworks. Both are a force based system.
 

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Is that your only two options?

Regardless of which you choose, I think you should focus hard on that squealing before moving forward.

Depending on how bad it is. From others on here who had/have the same problem, it only gets worse
so it's best to deal with it now at 5 months old before it becomes a life habit.
 

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So I've started with the Hillmann puppy program, it's worked ok so far but now my pup is just excitable and almost obsessed (not in a good way, crying and squealing because she wants it so bad) with the bumper. I feel she would've had this crazy desire without me adding fuel to the fire, so to say. Now her manners are sketchy and she is not responsive whatsoever if I try to distract her from the bumper. She does have a good sit, recall, and heel/walking on lead.

So she's 5 months at the moment and was wondering which program would be better to continue with?

Which is easier to understand and follow?
Which would benifit HER more?
Which method have you used?
Which is better for a beginner to implement?




I have often wondered if this didn't happen to someone following Bills advice. Not wanting to be critical of you but this is what happens when people follow a "PROGRAM" too close without thinking for themselves. I would love to hear Bill's response to this.
Sounds as though you have figured that out for yourself, good for you, but now you have created something you need to fix. I have had plenty of dogs that needed little help in the excitement part. You have gone overboard on the excitement part now you need to go overboard on the obedience part which is not preferred either but you need to get a good handle on this dog before worrying about which program to follow. Always try to keep the teter toter level.
Think I'll start another thread on "following a program".
 

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So I've started with the Hillmann puppy program, it's worked ok so far but now my pup is just excitable and almost obsessed (not in a good way, crying and squealing because she wants it so bad) with the bumper. I feel she would've had this crazy desire without me adding fuel to the fire, so to say. Now her manners are sketchy and she is not responsive whatsoever if I try to distract her from the bumper. She does have a good sit, recall, and heel/walking on lead.
I have often wondered if this didn't happen to someone following Bills advice. Not wanting to be critical of you but this is what happens when people follow a "PROGRAM" too close without thinking for themselves. I would love to hear Bill's response to this.
Sounds as though you have figured that out for yourself, good for you, but now you have created something you need to fix. I have had plenty of dogs that needed little help in the excitement part. You have gone overboard on the excitement part now you need to go overboard on the obedience part which is not preferred either but you need to get a good handle on this dog before worrying about which program to follow. Always try to keep the teter toter level.
Think I'll start another thread on "following a program".
Is this b/c he followed Hillmann's advice to a T?
or b/c his dog is a whiner and he hasn't learned how to control her yet?

I think it would be a pretty bold statement to say that the result of following Hillmann's program
could cause a pup to be uncontrollably verbal. I think it's also something Bill would address if (asked) via e-mail etc.

From all the folks I know that have used Hillmann's Pup Advice,
having a dog turn verbal b/c of it has never been heard of.

This would be a first.
 

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My pup is 6 months and I recently started on Hillmann. She has always had great excitement, but she could stare through a brick wall when I've got her steady on short marks. Anyway, I don't do the excitement phase like Bill does. Once I pull the bumper out, she is locked on. I'll give her a fun toss or two, but the majority of the session is me working to balance out that hardcore enthusiasm.

As a first time lab owner and this is my first attempt training, I don't know if my advice is worth a lick, other than to tell you that she has improved dramatically since I started working Hillmann's program. The big thing is keeping that balance. My girl doesn't squeal, but when she starts getting too focused on the bumper (and not on me) we switch out and do something that requires her to re-shift her focus on to me. Good luck!
 

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The "issue" is not understanding what constitutes balance.

"I feel she would've had this crazy desire without me adding fuel to the fire."

When training a pup knowing when to "play with matches" is part of the process. My pup is almost 6 months old. She can be "over the top" in an instant. Balance in Hillmann's program is maintained by the "aware" trainer doing "less of this and more of that".

Simple fact, it's almost never a proven program that is the issue.....it's the teacher (or lack thereof). A simple rule for beginning trainers is to avoid mistakes. Unfortunately, what compliments that concept is "We are supposed to learn from our mistakes." Welcome to Dog Training 101.

edit: nogie1717 "get's it"!
 

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I don't think you have finished with Hillman. And rather than saying you have followed it to a T, I think you haven't listened to Bill. When the dog wants the bumper you do obedience, when the dog is listening you can do marks.
deb
 

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I don't think you have finished with Hillman. And rather than saying you have followed it to a T, I think you haven't listened to Bill. When the dog wants the bumper you do obedience, when the dog is listening you can do marks.
deb
 

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Is this b/c he followed Hillmann's advice to a T?
or b/c his dog is a whiner and he hasn't learned how to control her yet?

I think it would be a pretty bold statement to say that the result of following Hillmann's program
could cause a pup to be uncontrollably verbal. I think it's also something Bill would address if (asked) via e-mail etc.

From all the folks I know that have used Hillmann's Pup Advice,
having a dog turn verbal b/c of it has never been heard of.

This would be a first.




No way, not saying that at all but if the dog is a whiner and out of control you certainly don't want to build on that. You are totally miss reading my point. Building excitement with a dog like this without having control also is getting WAY out of balance and I think Bill would agree. I love Bills stuff but as with anything you have to also read between the lines which a lot of new inexperienced people don't.
 

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My pup is 6 months and I recently started on Hillmann. She has always had great excitement, but she could stare through a brick wall when I've got her steady on short marks. Anyway, I don't do the excitement phase like Bill does. Once I pull the bumper out, she is locked on. I'll give her a fun toss or two, but the majority of the session is me working to balance out that hardcore enthusiasm.

As a first time lab owner and this is my first attempt training, I don't know if my advice is worth a lick, other than to tell you that she has improved dramatically since I started working Hillmann's program. The big thing is keeping that balance. My girl doesn't squeal, but when she starts getting too focused on the bumper (and not on me) we switch out and do something that requires her to re-shift her focus on to me. Good luck!




I like this! KwickLabs makes some great points also.
 

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Discussion Starter · #12 ·
"Regardless of which you choose, I think you should focus hard on that squealing before moving forward."

How would you recommend to work on that? She does well on her sit, when I work her on heel she's walking right beside me keeping her eye on me. I've tried distracting her from the bumper but she is locked on hard, I will admit the squealing is when she hasn't been out but she jumps like crazy on me when I bring the bumpers out.

That "on, off" is there she will sit 90% and wait for me to either pick it up or release her to get it.

I'm not entirely sure how to fix this. She is my first lab I'm training for this.
 

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"Regardless of which you choose, I think you should focus hard on that squealing before moving forward."

How would you recommend to work on that? She does well on her sit, when I work her on heel she's walking right beside me keeping her eye on me. I've tried distracting her from the bumper but she is locked on hard, I will admit the squealing is when she hasn't been out but she jumps like crazy on me when I bring the bumpers out.

That "on, off" is there she will sit 90% and wait for me to either pick it up or release her to get it.

I'm not entirely sure how to fix this. She is my first lab I'm training for this.

I'll be honest. I'd not be entirely confident in giving advice on this situation
b/c I quite frankly don't have the experince to do so.

With that in mind I can give an example though.

Verbal Dogs vary as well. You could just have a pumped up pup vs a dog that has a real problem like barking
and/or yelping at the line. I'd have to see video(Which is the closest thing to seeing the pup in person)
to make a good suggestion as would most everyone here, to which I recommend.
You should try that. Just a quick clip on your phone shared via Youtube or something.

Either-way the little experience I do have with a verbal dog was with one that was 2 years old.
He'd whine when marks were thrown. I decided that enforcing 'SIT' was what was needed.
B/c 'SIT' means sit.....still, motionless....and quiet. So that's the command I enforced.
With heeling stick in my left hand and check cord(w/Choke Collar) in my right.
I'd have the dog at heel while Marks were thrown and poppers were fired.
At the slightest whimper of noise, I'd stick to the rump(Not hard)
and jerk up slightly on the check cord and command 'SIT',
which transitioned to one sharp whistle blast.

Took 4-5 sessions IIRC, until dog understood the new standard of 'SIT'.

After maintaining that standard over the next few weeks it's not been a problem since.
However, the dog was still loud in the pen and at other times. But not at HEEL/SIT(The Line)

I share that not as WHAT TO DO WITH YOUR PUP, but just to give you an example
of how ONE person(myself) dealt with one dog(who was older).
It may help you in the future.
 

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How vocal is this dog at home, in the kennel, or in the truck? That may be the place to start.
 

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I like this! KwickLabs makes some great points also.
Subscribe to Hillman's YouTube channel. He is posting a series on the electric collar and positive reinforcement. It just started on Oct 22. He is up to Lesson 5. Lesson #2 around the 2 minute mark he talks about Balance for quite some time.

Anyway, best of luck. I am getting a new pup in 2 weeks and am going with Hillman for puppy and FF. I'm rewatching his stuff. He really does make it look easy. Elegant is a good word. Kind of like watching my dad fix something, then I try it and elegant is not what you'd call it. That gene missed me, hopefully it hits my son, but I'd say that isn't looking good either.
 

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"Regardless of which you choose, I think you should focus hard on that squealing before moving forward."

How would you recommend to work on that? She does well on her sit, when I work her on heel she's walking right beside me keeping her eye on me. I've tried distracting her from the bumper but she is locked on hard, I will admit the squealing is when she hasn't been out but she jumps like crazy on me when I bring the bumpers out.

That "on, off" is there she will sit 90% and wait for me to either pick it up or release her to get it.

I'm not entirely sure how to fix this. She is my first lab I'm training for this.
An excitable dog is an excitable dog. There is a way to install the on off switch that you are looking for and it starts with obedience. How does your dog do when you praise her for compliance with a command? I would venture a guess that your dogs gets excited and the praise breaks the command. How does your dog accept affection when you try to rub her shoulder and give a good dog? I would venture a guess that she wiggles all over the place and it breaks the command. How does your dog do when you get her out and try to collar her? I picture a rodeo. If any of these are correct your obedience is not as solid as you think it is. The key here is to get the pup to the point where she is able to still be obedient in the face of distraction. That is when you have the on off switch installed.

The whole key to the traffic cop type system is that you are trying to solidify "sit" in the midst of distractions. If you pull a bumper out and she is jumping all over you then all you should have to do is say "sit" and she should sit calmly and quietly. If she is not doing this then you continue until she does. You are not done until you can verbally praise, give affection, and pull out a bumper without her moving, whining, or otherwise breaking the command.

So, how do you do this? Correct with your rope when these things break the command. Reintroduce the concepts slowly and you will see a huge change. Not only will you have solidified your obedience to the point that even you will be amazed but the noise will go away.

BTW, that was all in the video. You just have to have trained a bunch of dogs after watching it to realize it was there.

Good luck.
 

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Well said Tony, that was my point when I said he wasn't done with Bill's video. With these excitably pups it is all about obedience, everything is all about obedience. Obedience is part of their lives, not just something you do as a routine. You have to make sure you are in control at all times.
deb
 

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An excitable dog is an excitable dog. There is a way to install the on off switch that you are looking for and it starts with obedience. How does your dog do when you praise her for compliance with a command? I would venture a guess that your dogs gets excited and the praise breaks the command. How does your dog accept affection when you try to rub her shoulder and give a good dog? I would venture a guess that she wiggles all over the place and it breaks the command. How does your dog do when you get her out and try to collar her? I picture a rodeo. If any of these are correct your obedience is not as solid as you think it is. The key here is to get the pup to the point where she is able to still be obedient in the face of distraction. That is when you have the on off switch installed.

The whole key to the traffic cop type system is that you are trying to solidify "sit" in the midst of distractions. If you pull a bumper out and she is jumping all over you then all you should have to do is say "sit" and she should sit calmly and quietly. If she is not doing this then you continue until she does. You are not done until you can verbally praise, give affection, and pull out a bumper without her moving, whining, or otherwise breaking the command.

So, how do you do this? Correct with your rope when these things break the command. Reintroduce the concepts slowly and you will see a huge change. Not only will you have solidified your obedience to the point that even you will be amazed but the noise will go away.

BTW, that was all in the video. You just have to have trained a bunch of dogs after watching it to realize it was there.

Good luck.
NICE post Tony!! OMG is that really you?:)
I highlighted the part about the noise in red, because that may be true with lots of dogs, but not so with some chronic noisy dogs. There are some that it is never nearly that easy to address and fix noise issues
 

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NICE post Tony!! OMG is that really you?:)
I highlighted the part about the noise in red, because that may be true with lots of dogs, but not so with some chronic noisy dogs. There are some that it is never nearly that easy to address and fix noise issues
Yes it's me. And I agree about chronic noise makers but it's a heck of a good start and worth a try.
 
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