Having the same problem with my male Labrador. I will be interested to see the comments as I have tried all the things you have mentioned. The turn around and go again just seems to amp him up.
Meredith
Meredith
Line Manners
I think this one has sort of been discussed to death... but I am looking for alternative ways to work through line manners. Actually, she is great at the line, but getting to the line is another story. She is pretty good in the blind, too. She did start to creep, so, if I am not using a platform, I ask for other behaviors before I send her to "break the chain" -- back up, down, stand, etc. and that has eliminated any creeping (I realize this needs to be maintained; it's not fixed).
Field training is not my only sport, but the other work I'm doing with my dog should support good line manners. Our top sports are agility and nosework. We've been training for competition obedience since I brought her home, but it's not my focus at the moment. We do dockdiving competitions once a month and I use it to work through impulse control and line manners. Between dock diving and training in the field, these behaviors are very similar. I don't think it's helped at all, to be honest, but it hasn't made it worse. We've been doing field work longer than we've been doing any dock diving, so the dock diving didn't create the monster.
She has a great stay and excellent impulse control. We do work on blinds at home. I also leash her up and do a nice field heel to her food, favorite ball, etc. For dock diving she can hold her 40 foot dock stay (one of the few dogs at competition that can). We do struggle with walking nicely to the gate to get into the agility ring so I always show up early so we can work through that and she is doing great. Same with nosework, walking to the startline. It's nothing like dock diving or field work so, not sure it's translating. She has a trained hold, retrieve to hand, etc. We're doing junior type field work though I really should be doing more with her. It should not be a huge surprise that the dog can do anything--Utility level obedience, high level nosework, weave poles--but when asking for loose leash walking it's like she is saying "you think I am Einstein or something???".
It's the typical whining and pulling. Corrections make it worse. Turning around and going back to the car makes it worse. She continues to amp up. The one thing I've been able to do that helps a little bit is to walk on leash away from the set up (obviously she knows it is there) until she is able to acknowledge me and take food (taking food helps me know when her brain has returned), calm down a little. It seems to be slightly helpful, but I'm not sure how to expand on that. I was thinking that I can get her calmed down, then head to the blind, as soon as she acts up, turn around and go back to the area, walk and calm down, rinse and repeat? I guess it's worth a try... but thought I'd come here and ask if anyone has any advice other than the obvious stuff that I have already tried.
Field training is not my only sport, but the other work I'm doing with my dog should support good line manners. Our top sports are agility and nosework. We've been training for competition obedience since I brought her home, but it's not my focus at the moment. We do dockdiving competitions once a month and I use it to work through impulse control and line manners. Between dock diving and training in the field, these behaviors are very similar. I don't think it's helped at all, to be honest, but it hasn't made it worse. We've been doing field work longer than we've been doing any dock diving, so the dock diving didn't create the monster.
She has a great stay and excellent impulse control. We do work on blinds at home. I also leash her up and do a nice field heel to her food, favorite ball, etc. For dock diving she can hold her 40 foot dock stay (one of the few dogs at competition that can). We do struggle with walking nicely to the gate to get into the agility ring so I always show up early so we can work through that and she is doing great. Same with nosework, walking to the startline. It's nothing like dock diving or field work so, not sure it's translating. She has a trained hold, retrieve to hand, etc. We're doing junior type field work though I really should be doing more with her. It should not be a huge surprise that the dog can do anything--Utility level obedience, high level nosework, weave poles--but when asking for loose leash walking it's like she is saying "you think I am Einstein or something???".
It's the typical whining and pulling. Corrections make it worse. Turning around and going back to the car makes it worse. She continues to amp up. The one thing I've been able to do that helps a little bit is to walk on leash away from the set up (obviously she knows it is there) until she is able to acknowledge me and take food (taking food helps me know when her brain has returned), calm down a little. It seems to be slightly helpful, but I'm not sure how to expand on that. I was thinking that I can get her calmed down, then head to the blind, as soon as she acts up, turn around and go back to the area, walk and calm down, rinse and repeat? I guess it's worth a try... but thought I'd come here and ask if anyone has any advice other than the obvious stuff that I have already tried.
1 - 20 of 82 Posts
This is my standard with my dogs.
What does the dog want?
to get the mark
What does the dog HAVE to do in order to get the mark?
be obedient.
If the dog is not obedient. The dog does not get the mark. Ever.
I would simply put the dog up and not do any marks that day... alternatively... if in a group situation, I put the dog back in the crate/box and then back to the line 10 minutes later and try again. I DO NOT accept anything other than the dog meeting my standards. If the dog fails to meet those standards, return to the crate.
Also --- ONE command (no nagging! no continual 'jerking the lead') Just one command (heel)... as soon as/if that position is broken... going back to the truck.
going to a seperate area and working on basic heel work... may be beneficial. But in the end, she has to learn what gets her that mark. I'd make the walk 'very short' from the holding blind to the line, to start with... and don't use crutches like place boards/mats... Although I know some people use a mat at the 'halfway point' and then take the dog forward, off the mat, for the marks.....
What does the dog want?
to get the mark
What does the dog HAVE to do in order to get the mark?
be obedient.
If the dog is not obedient. The dog does not get the mark. Ever.
I would simply put the dog up and not do any marks that day... alternatively... if in a group situation, I put the dog back in the crate/box and then back to the line 10 minutes later and try again. I DO NOT accept anything other than the dog meeting my standards. If the dog fails to meet those standards, return to the crate.
Also --- ONE command (no nagging! no continual 'jerking the lead') Just one command (heel)... as soon as/if that position is broken... going back to the truck.
going to a seperate area and working on basic heel work... may be beneficial. But in the end, she has to learn what gets her that mark. I'd make the walk 'very short' from the holding blind to the line, to start with... and don't use crutches like place boards/mats... Although I know some people use a mat at the 'halfway point' and then take the dog forward, off the mat, for the marks.....
Unfortunately, that makes it worse, especially vocalization.This is my standard with my dogs.
What does the dog want?
to get the mark
What does the dog HAVE to do in order to get the mark?
be obedient.
If the dog is not obedient. The dog does not get the mark. Ever.
I would simply put the dog up and not do any marks that day... alternatively... if in a group situation, I put the dog back in the crate/box and then back to the line 10 minutes later and try again. I DO NOT accept anything other than the dog meeting my standards. If the dog fails to meet those standards, return to the crate.
Also --- ONE command (no nagging! no continual 'jerking the lead') Just one command (heel)... as soon as/if that position is broken... going back to the truck.
I know people that have denied dogs marks for a month or more to correct vocalization or other issues with line manners.Unfortunately, that makes it worse, especially vocalization.
I would make it very black and white and very basic to start... no noise from the field. Silent throw, boring throw (bumper) or hand throw..... you have to find a way to achieve success. Even if it is very small. And your demeanor is important.Unfortunately, that makes it worse, especially vocalization.
This makes total sense, but is not where we have trouble. Once she is AT the line, she is steady and quiet. It's getting TO the line that we have problems. And, nothing is boring for this little girl. 😅I would make it very black and white and very basic to start... no noise from the field. Silent throw, boring throw (bumper) or hand throw..... you have to find a way to achieve success. Even if it is very small. And your demeanor is important.
My little girl had similar issues. Very excited to get to the holding blind. Then she will often lay down after getting in it. next she would race to the line when told to heel.This makes total sense, but is not where we have trouble. Once she is AT the line, she is steady and quiet. It's getting TO the line that we have problems. And, nothing is boring for this little girl. 😅
We did it and still do lots of heeling drills.
I also set up a holding blind and mat in the yard and make a drill out of going to the holding blind, and then to the mat. Sometimes we don't make it to the mat and instead turn around and go back to the holding blind. Keep her following me, never leading. Later, I would run a simple, blind or two after she was perfect going to the line. Next, I would set up a stick man and a launcher or talk my wife into throwing up a couple simple marks.
It takes a little time, but it pays off.
The exciting part is the marks. If you make them less exciting (for the immediate future until you see improvement), then she will have less to be excited about.This makes total sense, but is not where we have trouble. Once she is AT the line, she is steady and quiet. It's getting TO the line that we have problems. And, nothing is boring for this little girl. 😅
Another thought is to run blinds or sight blinds if she isn't running cold blinds... Lots of them. Treat going to the line exactly the same every time and exactly the way you would if you were running marks.
High quality German prong collar with quick release hook so it comes off in an instant. Combined with praise when they walk calmly to line.... Once she is AT the line, she is steady and quiet. It's getting TO the line that we have problems. .
This is my standard with my dogs.
What does the dog want?
to get the mark
What does the dog HAVE to do in order to get the mark?
be obedient.
If the dog is not obedient. The dog does not get the mark. Ever.
I would simply put the dog up and not do any marks that day... alternatively... if in a group situation, I put the dog back in the crate/box and then back to the line 10 minutes later and try again. I DO NOT accept anything other than the dog meeting my standards. If the dog fails to meet those standards, return to the crate.
Also --- ONE command (no nagging! no continual 'jerking the lead') Just one command (heel)... as soon as/if that position is broken... going back to the truck.
going to a seperate area and working on basic heel work... may be beneficial. But in the end, she has to learn what gets her that mark. I'd make the walk 'very short' from the holding blind to the line, to start with... and don't use crutches like place boards/mats... Although I know some people use a mat at the 'halfway point' and then take the dog forward, off the mat, for the marks.....
X 1,000!!!!!
Does your dog drag you to line with Bill Hillmann?
rumble.com
Does your dog drag you to line with Bill Hillmann?
Does your dog drag you/forge ahead when going to line? Bill gives five suggestions to help you with this problem. AKC Retriever Field Trial Accomplishments of Bill Hillmann: https://youtu.be/OB95Dg2sS
rumble.com
So she has bad behaviour on the way to the line and then if she is steady and quiet at the line you are still allowing her a retrieve rather than putting her up and starting from the beginning again on the next trip from the truck to the line? Looks like she is “driving the bus“ to me. This is not a quick / easy fix …. Lots of patience and time needed.This makes total sense, but is not where we have trouble. Once she is AT the line, she is steady and quiet. It's getting TO the line that we have problems. And, nothing is boring for this little girl. 😅
My dog Ranger was very vocal and would break and would not heel properly to the line. What helped fix it was just going with no lead. Amazingly he stopped whining/barking before being sent on his mark. I was told by my breeder/mentor that Rangers dad had the same problem and the pressure of the lease was to much. This almost immediately fixed that problem. I also worked on sitting at the holding blind or honoring everyday. It got better but still need some workI think this one has sort of been discussed to death... but I am looking for alternative ways to work through line manners. Actually, she is great at the line, but getting to the line is another story. She is pretty good in the blind, too. She did start to creep, so, if I am not using a platform, I ask for other behaviors before I send her to "break the chain" -- back up, down, stand, etc. and that has eliminated any creeping (I realize this needs to be maintained; it's not fixed).
Field training is not my only sport, but the other work I'm doing with my dog should support good line manners. Our top sports are agility and nosework. We've been training for competition obedience since I brought her home, but it's not my focus at the moment. We do dockdiving competitions once a month and I use it to work through impulse control and line manners. Between dock diving and training in the field, these behaviors are very similar. I don't think it's helped at all, to be honest, but it hasn't made it worse. We've been doing field work longer than we've been doing any dock diving, so the dock diving didn't create the monster.
She has a great stay and excellent impulse control. We do work on blinds at home. I also leash her up and do a nice field heel to her food, favorite ball, etc. For dock diving she can hold her 40 foot dock stay (one of the few dogs at competition that can). We do struggle with walking nicely to the gate to get into the agility ring so I always show up early so we can work through that and she is doing great. Same with nosework, walking to the startline. It's nothing like dock diving or field work so, not sure it's translating. She has a trained hold, retrieve to hand, etc. We're doing junior type field work though I really should be doing more with her. It should not be a huge surprise that the dog can do anything--Utility level obedience, high level nosework, weave poles--but when asking for loose leash walking it's like she is saying "you think I am Einstein or something???".
It's the typical whining and pulling. Corrections make it worse. Turning around and going back to the car makes it worse. She continues to amp up. The one thing I've been able to do that helps a little bit is to walk on leash away from the set up (obviously she knows it is there) until she is able to acknowledge me and take food (taking food helps me know when her brain has returned), calm down a little. It seems to be slightly helpful, but I'm not sure how to expand on that. I was thinking that I can get her calmed down, then head to the blind, as soon as she acts up, turn around and go back to the area, walk and calm down, rinse and repeat? I guess it's worth a try... but thought I'd come here and ask if anyone has any advice other than the obvious stuff that I have already tried.
One thing I did with my dog that really helped. The problem is it’s hard to duplicate the excitement of going to the line when they know they’re going to get something they want. My dogs all of them love to eat. They get super excited so what I decided to do if they wanted to eat, they had to earn it. I would go put their bowl of food somewhere outside or in the house wherever. I would do healing drills around the food, by the food, over the food. They can’t eat until they’re working with me perfectly. It takes five minutes a time to do this and it really paid off for me.
Not really, but kinda. She pulls or vocalizes she gets a correction and we don't move forward until she is quiet and in the correct position. Rinse and repeat until we get to the line.So she has bad behaviour on the way to the line and then if she is steady and quiet at the line you are still allowing her a retrieve rather than putting her up and starting from the beginning again on the next trip from the truck to the line? Looks like she is “driving the bus“ to me. This is not a quick / easy fix …. Lots of patience and time needed.
I feel pretty certain if she knew what I wanted, she'd do it.
Is there a trigger when disobedience starts?
When you open the kennel door does the dog bolt out or does the dog wait with eye contact until verbally released by the handler?
In the holding blind, can you unleash the dog and have the dog sit with no movement you step back with a silent traffic cop signal?
Can you silently walk around the holding blind while the dog maintains a perfect sit?
Can you call your unleashed dog from the holding blind to a heel position and have the dog sit with no movement for a full 5 minutes?
With your first step backwards away from the line will your unleashed dog move backwards with you or does the dog surge forward instead?
In the routine from the holding blind to the line at what instant does disobedience first start?
When you open the kennel door does the dog bolt out or does the dog wait with eye contact until verbally released by the handler?
In the holding blind, can you unleash the dog and have the dog sit with no movement you step back with a silent traffic cop signal?
Can you silently walk around the holding blind while the dog maintains a perfect sit?
Can you call your unleashed dog from the holding blind to a heel position and have the dog sit with no movement for a full 5 minutes?
With your first step backwards away from the line will your unleashed dog move backwards with you or does the dog surge forward instead?
In the routine from the holding blind to the line at what instant does disobedience first start?
But even with this needed “rinse and repeat” behaviour, at the end of this, regardless of how long this walk to the line takes, you are still rewarding this behaviour with a retrieve? She doesn’t need to know what YOU want as she is still getting what SHE wants at the end of your lengthy walks to the line.Not really, but kinda. She pulls or vocalizes she gets a correction and we don't move forward until she is quiet and in the correct position. Rinse and repeat until we get to the line.
I feel pretty certain if she knew what I wanted, she'd do it.
Your focus needs to be on obedience to the line (several good suggestions made above in helping with this) and when she gets there, then walk her off the line back to the truck without a retrieve. Likely won’t happen overnight and you may have MANY training sessions where she never sees a mark. Until she understands that she NEEDS to have acceptable manners to get the reward, she will never give you the obedience you are looking for.
This will not work. She believes she is doing exactly what you want her to do.Not really, but kinda. She pulls or vocalizes she gets a correction and we don't move forward until she is quiet and in the correct position. Rinse and repeat until we get to the line.
I feel pretty certain if she knew what I wanted, she'd do it.
Can you see how this whole scenario doesn't teach her to understand that quiet and obedient get her what she wants? She is being quiet and obedient for the sit.....not for the heel.... she still gets to go forward, to the line.
The human mind thinks the dog will associate 'not getting to go forward' with being told to sit/be quiet.... when in fact the dog mind looks at the situation much more simply. The instant she forges ahead... do a 180 and take her back to the car. I would have a pinch collar on her for this time of her training.
Yes, I see that it has become a behavior chain, and that it doesn't work.This will not work. She believes she is doing exactly what you want her to do.
Can you see how this whole scenario doesn't teach her to understand that quiet and obedient get her what she wants? She is being quiet and obedient for the sit.....not for the heel.... she still gets to go forward, to the line.
The human mind thinks the dog will associate 'not getting to go forward' with being told to sit/be quiet.... when in fact the dog mind looks at the situation much more simply. The instant she forges ahead... do a 180 and take her back to the car. I would have a pinch collar on her for this time of her training.
I will give it a try. I always prefer to start new training at home. I could simply put a bumper in the yard and easily have a similar response, and use the house as her crate.
She does have a pinch collar on. The only thing it does it keeps me upright. And yes it is high quality, etc. The more it's used the worse the behavior. If I put a regular collar on her, I actually get better behavior but there is more of a chance of me getting hurt when/if she bolts. The punishment part causes more stress for her which causes more vocalization. In a perfect world I'll do this without a prong, which I'll work on at home, as she will actually get less worked up that way.
1 - 20 of 82 Posts
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