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What is the line to the blind

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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
How many feel that the line to the blind is a laser line from the handlers side to the bird.If you will, explain why you feel that way.

How many feel otherwise, if you will,will you also explain what you think "it" is and why you feel that way.

john
 

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The line to the blind is a straight line to the bird, the field determines how tight that corridor is, plain and simple. In our fondest dreams we hope our dog lines the blind on a true laser line but factors take over if the blind is well designed that prevent that.
 

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Discussion Starter · #4 ·
Bob Gutermuth said:
The line to the blind is a 'lazer ' line, however, there is a fairway of about 15deg width that I expect the dog to remain in.
When the dog is out from under the "Laser"and off to one side or the other do you(figurative you/rhetorical question) as a judge then expect the handler to handle the dog back under the laser or you will consider then not to be challenging your blind :?:

BTW at 50 and 100 yds what does 15 deg translate to in yds. or ft.

The line to the blind is a straight line to the bird, the field determines how tight that corridor is, plain and simple.
If one subscribes to that in determining if the dog passes or fails the blind, would only apply to FTs, and then actually its how good your marks are in comparison to the rest of the field that determines how tight your blind must be.

In a HT the field is irrelevant to the standard.

john
 

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Line to the blind

The line to the blind is the laser line for the first 150 yds and the corridor I see when holding up my hand giving the longhorn sign with my arm extended towards the bird and the bird in the middle. Just the way I try to run in training and tighter yet in a trial
 

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Re: Line to the blind

Ron Schuna said:
The line to the blind is the laser line for the first 150 yds and the corridor I see when holding up my hand giving the longhorn sign with my arm extended towards the bird and the bird in the middle. Just the way I try to run in training and tighter yet in a trial
As a full fledged Tea Sipper, I appreciate your reference, but I try to visualize a "V" formed by my Index and Middle finger. It's a cone with the blind in the middle of that cone.

Out of that cone up front is bad, in that cone at a distance is good.

Jerry
 

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john Fallon said:
If one subscribes to that in determining if the dog passes or fails the blind, would only apply to FTs, and then actually its how good your marks are in comparison to the rest of the field that determines how tight your blind must be.
I think the relevance of how the field did on the marks is best left for the judges conference at the end of the series. When there running my blind I want a good performance on that blind in comparison to the field. If they are called back there is the possiblility of placing for at least a JAM. I guess I am saying that I dont subscribe to the passing or failing of a blind, I few it as a retrieve in a series where trained abilities will be judged strickly. and only the better dogs completing for placements will be carried.

John Fallon said:
In a HT the field is irrelevant to the standard.
I agree.
 

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Jerry said:
Out of that cone up front is bad, in that cone at a distance is good.
I look at it in thirds if they have a weak 1/3 then 2/3 of the blind better be on or near on line. I dont feel a dog should be excused for having a weak 1/3, heck to me its about control and if the handler has control then their demonstrating what I am looking for. this is colored by how well the field does the retrieve.
 

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Robert explains it very well, and it is not a hidden idea. Depending on terrain and weather there can be a variance, but Rorem describes it well when he visualizes a blind as a handler. 15 degrees would be a great threshold to allow the animal to work within with progress. Unless it is really fat it should be scored well if this standard is adhered to.
 

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I have the minority view, so maybe that's why I'm disappointed in how my dogs are judged sometimes :(

Personally I just hate to see a dog ping-pong back & forth across that laser line regardless of how responsive to the handler. I'd much rather see a dog go with a good initial line with good momentum & carry that line parallel yet close to the laser line with few handles that don't result in ping-ponging.

I used that example because from the blind discussion, it seemed the majority preferred the ping-ping approach. Would that view still be the majority opinion if the parallel running dog had taken the same path but had fewer whistles?

I see this issue & the variance in views (even among judges & especially among handlers) as one that shows up most every FT or HT I see or enter. A real example from a FT this spring was virtually this same question, where I saw a dog 2 whistle a blind where that dog never crossed the laser line yet was never more than 10 yds to the right, only intersecting the line at the bird. Same dog showed great style & momentum. This dog was dropped because the dog didn't cross a ditch prior to some magical point along the path & was judged to not challenge the blind, while another dog ping-ponged back & forth, never really taking a good line yet very responsive to each & every 15-20 whistles along the 300+yds to the bird even though this dog was as variant to the laser line on both sides several times along the way.

Maybe I should start asking judges if they see a line or corridor to the blind?

And BTW, I still don't see how some in the blind discussion think dog B was getting farther from the blind along the way, while clearly dog B was closer with every step.
 

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Granddaddy said:
And BTW, I still don't see how some in the blind discussion think dog B was getting farther from the blind along the way, while clearly dog B was closer with every step.
Because unless the handler was giving the dog a straight back cast, the dog was scalloping into or away from a factor.
 

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achiro said:
...Because unless the handler was giving the dog a straight back cast, the dog was scalloping into or away from a factor.
Indulge my admittedly simple mind & explain how scalloping affected the fact that dog B got closer to the bird with every step (potential cast refusals aside). It seems as simple as measuring the distance to the bird at each whistle stop location, where if noted, dog B is getting closer to the bird with each step & stop. I understand the dog is not taking a direct laser line to the bird even from each point stopped but even the dog's tangent path was still closer with every step. And another point while measuring, dog A took an approx 20% longer route to the bird - I just don't understand how that's better - help me and the rest of the minority understand.
 

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Granddaddy said:
achiro said:
...Because unless the handler was giving the dog a straight back cast, the dog was scalloping into or away from a factor.
Indulge my admittedly simple mind & explain how scalloping affected the fact that dog B got closer to the bird with every step (potential cast refusals aside). It seems as simple as measuring the distance to the bird at each whistle stop location, where if noted, dog B is getting closer to the bird with each step & stop. I understand the dog is not taking a direct laser line to the bird even from each point stopped but even the dog's tangent path was still closer with every step. And another point while measuring, dog A took an approx 20% longer route to the bird - I just don't understand how that's better - help me and the rest of the minority understand.
I guess the easiest way to answer is by asking a question. Is it ok for a dog to give in to a factor on a blind?
 

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achiro said:
I guess the easiest way to answer is by asking a question. Is it ok for a dog to give in to a factor on a blind?
No it's not OK for a dog to give-in to a factor unless it is the more direct path to the blind- but still don't understand the inference.

We are talking about dog B from the blind discussion thread, right? If so the lines on the page indicated no factors. If you are talking about my example above (2 whistle dog & 15-20 whistle dog), then in my example 2 whistle dog didn't avoid or give-in to a factor just paralleled it then crossed it at another point in a responsive manner to the handler's whistle & hand signal.
 

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Granddaddy said:
achiro said:
I guess the easiest way to answer is by asking a question. Is it ok for a dog to give in to a factor on a blind?
No it's not OK for a dog to give-in to a factor unless it is the more direct path to the blind- but still don't understand the inference.

We are talking about dog B from the blind discussion thread, right? If so the lines on the page indicated no factors. If you are talking about my example above (2 whistle dog & 15-20 whistle dog), then in my example 2 whistle dog didn't avoid or give-in to a factor just paralleled it then crossed it at another point in a responsive manner to the handler's whistle & hand signal.
I'm talking about dog number 2 and it was giving in to a factor. Mybe not one we know about but there was something that was keeping that dog going right. Maybe the dog just looked out and made the decision that it knew where the blind was, whatever it was it wasn't going left at all which tells me that it wasn't taking and holding the casts(or the handler sucked ;) )
 

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And BTW, I still don't see how some in the blind discussion think dog B was getting farther from the blind along the way, while clearly dog B was closer with every step.
Not getting farther from the blind, farther from the line to the blind. The drawing can't give you a true measure of scale so we are all speculating. My take is that he must be too far offline b/c the handler kept stopping the dog and handling, yet got no direction change. Not a good thing.
 

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Oh and the fact that the handler stopped the dog at all tells us that it was leaving the acceptable "corridor"
 

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Anthony Heath said:
And BTW, I still don't see how some in the blind discussion think dog B was getting farther from the blind along the way, while clearly dog B was closer with every step.
:?:

Not getting farther from the blind, farther from the line to the blind. The drawing can't give you a true measure of scale so we are all speculating. My take is that he must be too far offline b/c the handler kept stopping the dog and handling, yet got no direction change. Not a good thing.
Right. There were the same amount of whistles in both examples. B didn't feel he was lining the blind because the dog was stopped and cast as many times as A. Momentum was broken. If he was stopping the dog and giving him straight backs he was purposely not making progress to the blind-he was cheating it. If he was casting toward the blind then he had multiple cast refusals. My guess it was the latter. The latter would possibly even fail a Senior HT with 3 cast refusals depending on the actual scale.
 

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Line to the blind

I identify the obstacles between the line and the blind. To me, that's the line to the blind. The more factors I can hit, the better off I'm doing to be.

The more obstacles the more revealing the blind. That was one of the issues muddying the waters in the original scenario. No obstacles.
The line to the blind and cast refusals are much easier to sort out with defined factors and influences IMO.
 
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