Am trying to duplicate my line bred harley female. Lots of drive, style, smarts, and with loads of bottom. Have a Cosmo/Fargo female pup now that is 7 mos. old, smart and stylish but EXTREMELY sensitive and licky. Need advice on which current lines have similar characteristics as my Harley paying particular attention to dogs with bottom, especially females. Any advice would be appreciated. Thanks to all.
GOOSER: I'll give you my opinion of what bottom means to me and females.
Bottom as (in my world) referrers to the dogs ability to take pressure AND still maintain a good training attitude.
Females in many cases will have "Heart" but lack bottom.
Gooser, I think he's focusing on females because he wants a female and the chances of getting a female with bottom increase if the dam has/throws bottom.
Hopefully others will chime in but, for me, I equate bottom a little bit with fearlessness. A dog has bottom when he can handle the pressure of training (not just collar pressure, there are lots of other types of pressures, even a long, out to sea, swim can cause pressure) and not sulk, quit, shut down, but instead, is ready to line up and go again. They take corrections well, learn from them and go right back out with style and enthusiasm.
I have an almost 10 month old Merlyn x Esprit's Power Play daughter that is showing she can take and respond to pressure.Very Stylish.It's one thing to take pressure but they have to learn from it too.Lost some marking after FF but may have been to 3 week lay off because of the wettest spring in Oregon history.Been with the trainer for a month and still keeps on ticking.Loves where she's at.Neat little dog.
Bottom to me is mental and physical toughness, the ability to stay focused and on task under tough conditions. I would hazard a guess that there have not been many,if any, great dogs that lacked the trait.
I have a female out of howdy ( watermarks Texas welcome) that was rock solid under pressure. FF was a breeze with her as she never seemed to lose focus.
Many of them look like they have bottom going through basics until they start coming into heat. Then you see what you really have when the hormones kick in. It's very difficult to say what lines have bottom. Best bet would be to look for a hard running female and take a chance but I have seen that too not work out from an NFC
What I call bottom is when the dog comes to the line in the last series of an AA trial (or in my case an AA training set up), stares out at that big water test, and you can see it in them that they really want it. Especially when lining up for that last, long bird with a big swim between her and the bird.
Some dogs act like they don't want to give you the 2nd to last bird because they know what remains. These dogs lack bottom.
On 100 yard marks bottom is probably not an issue. Its the big AA set-ups where you really need it.
What I call bottom is when the dog comes to the line in the last series of an AA trial (or in my case an AA training set up), stares out at that big water test, and you can see it in them that they really want it. Especially when lining up for that last, long bird with a big swim between her and the bird. On 100 yard marks bottom is probably not an issue. Its the big AA set-ups where you really need it..
You have nailed it, Glen. I would say... "On 100 yard marks, bottom is not an issue." and emphasize, "It's the big AA set-ups where you REALLY need it."
"Heart" is important, but when it wanes facing that big long swim, you want "BOTTOM" to take over.
That's a few issues I'd be willing to over look, as I'd put the "Years & years of experience" card to good use. A daily portion of, "You're gonna mind me" should correct the initial stubbornness & eventually the panicky behavior from pressure will clear up as well.
I'm probably wrong but I thought the bottom was meant as the accomplishments of the female's pedigree (bottom)side of the pedigree. But I dont have all the retriever lingo down.
I noticed through out the thread, that the Names of Chopper and Carbon has been brought up often..
If you combined the Bottom of the Pedigree analyisis with Chopper or Carbon being the Breedin Females parents....
Would a FEMALE puppy from that litter, regardless of the Dad,, have more chance to have "Bottom"???
If 1 Breeding Females Parent was Chopper,,, and another Breeding Females parent was Lean Mac...
Is there really an analogy to determine what female puppy would have more BOTTOM with only that information?
Why the recognition to Carbon or Chopper to consider getting good BOTTOM in a female puppy?
Really the only definition that matters, as it relates to this thread anyway, is that of the OP. Does anyone really know what kind of dog the OP is really looking for?
To all, Thank you for your "interesting" responses. I am looking for a female with lot's of bottom. I realize this is a "huge" undertaking knowing how sensitive females can be; however, I had one once in my line bred Harley bitch and would like to get another one like her. Helen, I appreciate your insight as to Carbon. What a great animal. Sorry to see him leave this world soooooo early. I know Jim and Frank were too. As stated,I have a Cosmo/ Fargo 7 mos. old female currently in training. Very sensitive and licky. I would doubt this is coming from Cosmo but don't know about Fargo. Any other lines besides Carbon that might throw females with bottom? Lines meaning male or female. Thanks again to all for your help. You can keep the "Kardashians. Have a much better looking one at home already.
Bottom to me is when the trainer applies pressure, whether collar, physical,mental, or the requirements of the last series of an AA water blind, the animal is ready to attack the problem and solve it. Sensitivity to training is fine, but the ability to take correction and come back looking for a way out is "bottom" to me.
Ohhhh,,, You mean a bitch that runs like a dog... Hehehe
You'll have to do your research on that one. Most of the responses are from personal experience with no reference to research on particular lines that throws successful competition bitches. Not to mention bitches that throw amazing dogs no matter who they are bred to or throw amazing dogs when bred to the right dog.
I have one black female from Gotta-B-Woodford which is the son of "Chopper" look at the classifieds if you are interested. Black female is the only one left.
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