[WRL]

With all the new posts on CNM and some of them being to the tune of "why haven't these big name studs had the test done?" or "Why aren't these dogs on the whitelist?", Ifigured a new poll would be great.

I can't seem to understand the HUGE pressure that is mounting for the testing of this procedure when I would bet MOST have yet to x-ray and OFA elbows which has been around quite some time and is quite a problem especially in some lines.

So here it goes........

 

[Buzz]

Poll????

FWIW, I have done ofa on my dog, and I don't plan on ever breeding him. But if you're going to spend money on a dog, seems like you'd want to know this information. Excellent by the way...

 

[WRL]

Can't get the poll thing to work....operator error I'm sure.

I did notice Buzz that you said your dog got an OFA excellent. But they don't rate elbows as excellent. So I would guess you did not x-ray your dogs elbows? Would I be correct?

WRL

 

[Chris Atkinson]

WRL, Please PM me the subject, the question and the options and I'll edit it in for you to make it a poll.

Also.... someone who prefers to remain anonymous sent me this: I felt it was a valid opinion and am posting it here, while keeping the sender's identity private:

I hope this is a sensible question as the topic of the day seems to be CNM carriers. Is it possible that the moderators on RTF could stop these guessing threads on potential carriers a little sooner i.e. the 'Ford' thread of today? I believe Sam was nice enough to respond even though he has no computer that the test is in progress. As you well know these topics can quickly get out of hand, and I would hate to see other well known sires debated as done today.

As Marilyn Fender stated in her CNM sticky "If one has a question about whether a certain dog is a carrier or not and it is not on the White List -- there are two possibilities. One is that the dog has not yet been tested and it is unknown and the other is that it has been tested and is a carrier or it has produced at least one affected pup and is therefore a known carrier. Since no one but Dr. Tiret and the owner knows the answer to that --- guessing is not productive or useful. Guessing publically could be very detrimental to a dog's reputation if it is clear and just not tested. If you are planning a breeding and want to know -- call the owner and ask. If they are not aware of theCNM testing -- then send them to the www.labradorcnm.com web site for information."

 

[Buzz]

Very perceptive. When I dropped him off at the vet, I specifically asked them to do both the hips and elbows. When I came back to pick him up, they asked me to write a check for the x-rays and another for ofa in the amount of - $30 dollars.

I said, that's interesting - I thought evaluation of both hips and elbows was $35 when submitted together. The vet says, hmm, we only did hips. I will go back and do elbows, but I can tell you, I am not very happy...


The vet's excuse was, "I guess we overlooked it, because not many people ask to get elbows done." :roll:

 

[badbullgator]

I can't seem to understand the HUGE pressure that is mounting for the testing of this procedure when I would bet MOST have yet to x-ray and OFA elbows which has been around quite some time and is quite a problem especially in some lines.

Only 28,000 since 1974! About 140,000 labs registered with AKC annually.
Hummmmmm.........
And no I have not had my dogs elbows done nor have I had CNM done, but I will have CNM done IF I decide to breed any of my three potential breeders as they are grand sires/dam of SuperTanker. The results would not change my mind from breeding if I decide to breed one or all except that if they are a carrier I would only breed to a no carrier as none of them are affected

 

[WRL]

I can't seem to understand the HUGE pressure that is mounting for the testing of this procedure when I would bet MOST have yet to x-ray and OFA elbows which has been around quite some time and is quite a problem especially in some lines.

Only 28,000 since 1974! About 140,000 labs registered with AKC annually.
Hummmmmm.........
And no I have not had my dogs elbows done nor have I had CNM done, but I will have CNM done IF I decide to breed any of my three potential breeders as they are grand sires/dam of SuperTanker. The results would not change my mind from breeding if I decide to breed one or all except that if they are a carrier I would only breed to a no carrier as none of them are affected

They may not be affected with CNM but how do you know they are not affected with Elbow dysplasia?

WRL

 

[WRL]

Very perceptive. When I dropped him off at the vet, I specifically asked them to do both the hips and elbows. When I came back to pick him up, they asked me to write a check for the x-rays and another for ofa in the amount of - $30 dollars.

I said, that's interesting - I thought evaluation of both hips and elbows was $35 when submitted together. The vet says, hmm, we only did hips. I will go back and do elbows, but I can tell you, I am not very happy...

that sucks.....well good on you for doing the elbows.

WRL

 

[badbullgator]

They may not be affected with CNM but how do you know they are not affected with Elbow dysplasia?

I don't except that phenotypically they are not. Apparently I am in the majority of people who do not do elbows. I need to be more convinced of the commonality of ED. 28,000 dogs reported in 34 years while at the same time 3.4 million labs have been registered in that time frame making that less than 1% of the dogs in that time reporting elbows to OFA. Not very statistically significant now is it?

 

[Franco]

If I am going to put forth the time and resources in having a competitve FT dog, I want ALL the health clearences!

I've washed talented dogs in the past because hips were moderate and I would have done it again if my current FT dog had any of the listed above that were not "good" or better or "clear"!

That is just ME and to each their own.

 

[WRL]

They may not be affected with CNM but how do you know they are not affected with Elbow dysplasia?

I don't except that phenotypically they are not. Apparently I am in the majority of people who do not do elbows. I need to be more convinced of the commonality of ED. 28,000 dogs reported in 34 years while at the same time 3.4 million labs have been registered in that time frame making that less than 1% of the dogs in that time reporting elbows to OFA. Not very statistically significant now is it?

I'm not sure what "I don't except phenotypically they are not." means. What you MEAN to say (unless you have had them x-rayed) is that they are not symptomatic. Doesn't mean that they are not phenotypical.....cause you'd know if you had them x-rayed.

Yep only 34,000 in 34 years.....but then how many have been checked for hips and how many have been registered? Still very very low percentages....so using your logic, hip dysplasia isn't a problem either. Then we have the how many dogs are affected by RD.....probably even less so now that's not a problem....and even less still affected by CNM.....still not a problem.

So using your logic, the statistics of having an unhealthy dog is extremely low so why bother testing at all......

More money in my pocket regards,

WRL

 

[badbullgator]

Doesn't mean that they are not phenotypical.....cause you'd know if you had them x-rayed.

Uh...just FYI

Phenotypically = outward appearance so yes phenotypically they are not affected. Are they genetically? Don?t know but then again x-ray do not equal genetic testing and would be phenotypically normal or abnormal based on what the x-rays show.

I'll stick with eyes, hips, and CNM. Never produced a dog with HD or ED and your welcome to choose to buy or breed whatever dog you choose. You can come down on as many people as you choose about elbows and it still does not change the fact that few people have them done. You can test for anything and every thing and still not truly know what you are producing.

 

[Golddogs]

Phenotypically = outward appearance so yes phenotypically they are not affected. Are they genetically? Don?t know but then again x-ray do not equal genetic testing and would be phenotypically normal or abnormal based on what the x-rays show.

I'll stick with eyes, hips, and CNM. Never produced a dog with HD or ED and your welcome to choose to buy or breed whatever dog you choose. You can come down on as many people as you choose about elbows and it still does not change the fact that few people have them done. You can test for anything and every thing and still not truly know what you are producing

For such a small additional cost to do the elbows, I find this attitude extremly short sighted. The fact that a large # of elbows have yet to be done is a weak reason for not having them x-rayed. It has not been that long since the problem of elbows began to show up in numbers large enough to be of concern.
I'm with WRL and Booty. I wanrt as much information as possible and the breeder that is more concerned with the future overall health of the breed gets high marks from me. More to life than an extra couple of bucks.

 

[pupaloo]

Elbow dysplasia is an often unrecognized problem. Many vets do not know how to test for it before there are clinical signs-and when you can see a problem, there is already significant damage done (I believe clinical signs start to show at grade 2, with grade 4 being the most severe).

IMO, there needs to be a pre-screening used as protocol byvets-there is a flexion test that can indicate ED before much of anything shows up on x-ray. If dogs were tested when they were around 6-8 months of age, damage could be eliminated or greatly reduced.

ED is treatable if caught early, much like HD. Screening for it seems prudent.

 

[Keith Stroyan]

I would bet MOST have yet to x-ray and OFA elbows which has been around quite some time and is quite a problem especially in some lines.

When I was breeding dogs, I did CERF by 14 weeks and again years they were bred, OFA and PennHIP at 24+ months.

I was told (some time ago) that the elbow certification was not very accurate. I also did not check for PRA because it is rare in FT lab lines.

If I breed again, I'll read up on the elbow test. In fact, I'll read up on it this year since I have some pups coming up for hips later. I will certainly do CNM and hopefully there will be a EIC test by the time I breed dogs again. (Did you send in your dog's blood for the EIC study?)

 

[Chris Atkinson]

Keith, Can you please type a brief summary of how folks can do this? (or maybe you can bump a previous post on this)

Unfortunately, many folks want the test but don't feel they have the time to go out of their way to participate. Maybe you can explain how easy it is for them to be part of this study, or explain the process that those conducting the study have to make life easy for the people involved in the sample submission process.

I know I'm heading into the vet for overdue shots and could easily have some blood drawn, but I'd have to do some searching and "work" to try and find how to do it.

Heck, if you want to type it out as a separate, new post, I'll make it a sticky even.

Chris

 

[badbullgator]

Yep only 34,000 in 34 years.....but then how many have been checked for hips and how many have been registered? Still very very low percentages....so using your logic, hip dysplasia isn't a problem either. Then we have the how many dogs are affected by RD.....probably even less so now that's not a problem....and even less still affected by CNM.....still not a problem.

166501 dogs registered for hips or about 5%. Still not a very high percentage (labs rank 72 on the list).
I'll let you make your point WRL. Where did you come about your information on the prevalence of HD and/or ED in labs? Give me the statistical references that back up that both are a problem in the general population. Would you also be so kind as to bear out why the ED x-rays are worth wild and if you can find it what source says that the ofa elbows are accurate?

 

[T. Mac]

Lee,

SOmething that always amazes me on this list is the perception that the list members reflect the majority of (gun) dog owners/breeders. In fact the list membership is a very small (elite) subset of this overall group.

If you were to carefully review copies of AKC's Stud Book (at least before they stopped publishing it last year) you would quickly notice that the vast majority of dogs tht are breed have NO health clearances at all, and have NO AKC titles at all.

As I generally just reviewed my breed I do not have as clear a picture of the numbers in the Labs or Goldens. But in Chessies, if 10% of the dogs had titles at the time of breeding, it was a banner month. In grabbing an old Stud Book of the shelf at random (August 2004) there were 84 Chessies listed (915 Goldens & 3255 Labs; the Stud Book just lists those dogs used for breeding for the first time.) Only 6 of the Chessies had any title of any sort (CH, CD, JH etc.). And when matched to ALL health clearances, this number drops even further.

T. Mac

 

[WRL]

Lee,

SOmething that always amazes me on this list is the perception that the list members reflect the majority of (gun) dog owners/breeders. In fact the list membership is a very small (elite) subset of this overall group.

If you were to carefully review copies of AKC's Stud Book (at least before they stopped publishing it last year) you would quickly notice that the vast majority of dogs tht are breed have NO health clearances at all, and have NO AKC titles at all.

As I generally just reviewed my breed I do not have as clear a picture of the numbers in the Labs or Goldens. But in Chessies, if 10% of the dogs had titles at the time of breeding, it was a banner month. In grabbing an old Stud Book of the shelf at random (August 2004) there were 84 Chessies listed (915 Goldens & 3255 Labs; the Stud Book just lists those dogs used for breeding for the first time.) Only 6 of the Chessies had any title of any sort (CH, CD, JH etc.). And when matched to ALL health clearances, this number drops even further.

T. Mac

I don't have any such perception. I DO know that better than 90% of the Labs out there being bred have no clearances at all nor likely to have any titles.

MY point is, that some seem to be in some giant uproar about "Why doesn't FC AFC Popular Stud have his name on the CNM whitelist, seeing as the test has been out a whole 4 months" rather than wondering why FC AFC Popular Stud does not have his elbows cleared when that test has been around for ages and ages.

Where is the rabidness to get the elbows done?

WRL

 

[KJB]

MY point is, that some seem to be in some giant uproar about "Why doesn't FC AFC Popular Stud have his name on the CNM whitelist, seeing as the test has been out a whole 4 months" rather than wondering why FC AFC Popular Stud does not have his elbows cleared when that test has been around for ages and ages.

Where is the rabidness to get the elbows done?

WRL

Having CNM testing done tells one for certain that a dog is a carrier, and we know that carrier to carrier breedings can produce affected pups and clear to either will produce unaffected pups. My understanding with elbow xrays is that the results are not nearly so black-and-white. Not trying to justify, just pointing out why folks may not be as worked up about elbows. The newness of the CNM test likely is also a factor in this discussion.