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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
I've been having lots of trouble getting my Boykin to handle. He's finally coming around but he has a real loopy sit. I realize he's a Spaniel and part of the problem is that he's extremely fast. I've tried a rope, I've used the collar but that results in pops, and I've just yelled and dragged him back to the spot. He, or should I say we are getting better but I was wondering if there were any drills I could use. Any suggestions?

Broadbill
 

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Go to RetrieversONLINE and search for past articles on troubleshooting. The basic drill to start is to return to pile work and then transition to BB blinds before returning to cold blinds.
The correction is a second sit whistle and nick. Praise the good, correct the poor, and neither praise nor correct the in between. You will mix stopping the dog close to the line before he gathers a lot if momentum for success with stopping the dog further down the line after gathering momentum to induce a loopy sit and get correction. Always in pile work, you will give plenty of freebies so as not to induce popping.
You should not run cold blinds during this process.

Now if your dog has not been schooled in pile work and the use if indirect pressure, he will likely not understand any of this.

There are a lot of details in the articles that you should read before implementing this process.
 

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I've been having lots of trouble getting my Boykin to handle. He's finally coming around but he has a real loopy sit. I realize he's a Spaniel and part of the problem is that he's extremely fast. I've tried a rope, I've used the collar but that results in pops, and I've just yelled and dragged him back to the spot. He, or should I say we are getting better but I was wondering if there were any drills I could use. Any suggestions?

Broadbill
How did you get to this point? What specific training steps have been taken, and are you following a known program?

Evan
 

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I will send my Springer out to place boards first. Then to piles. Go to Dobbs training center web page and then to the archives for details.
Keith
 

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You have forced to a pile correct? as in teaching the dog to continue to a pile and push through pressure. The popping makes me think that you might need to re-address this.

As for the sloppy sit, whistle, nick, whistle. sometimes nick, whistle (same time), and his butt should start hitting the ground faster, proceeded and followed by several free runs no stopping, and runs with pressured backs (back, nick, back). Mix it up, he's anticipating the stop, so don't stop him. He's got to believe he can beat the pressure, if he runs fast to the pile he can beat the pressure, if he sits fast he can beat the pressure.
 

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Kind of wondering why the rope situation didn't work. For my two dogs when their whistle sits started getting bad I would first bring them back to my side and use a pinch collar and do whistle sits and then mix in whistle nick whistle and then stretch them out with a 100 foot cord and do the same thing but take off the pinch collar. Send them from your side and get a whistle and yank the rope. It will snap them back but that is fine but it shows them that they need to turn immediately and sit. Next go do pile work and start off with at least 3-4 backs without a whistle sit but let him drag the rope. Now mix in a rope whistle sit early in the send and then move to rope, collar sit. This worked really well for me. Plenty of ideas and ways to work but from my experience this worked for my two dogs.
 

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Also if you see him starting to pop at all give the back nick back sequence to drive through the inclination to pop. If you have to move with him towards the back do so to keep the distance manageable for you and him. Further he is away the less control you have.
 

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I vote for placeboards. I am teaching my dog to handle now too. First taught the whistle sit from heel at a walk, then a trot then a run. Then teach the "place" command to send him to the board. Whistle when he gets on it and say "sit." Keep it fun. We are transitioning off the placeboards now. I take a bumper out and drop it so he knows it's there. If I toss it out, that's too much for him and his momentum is working against us. I send him for the bumper several times (freebies). I give and occasional whistle to the pile. As soon as he turns and sits i toss a bumper and send him. He is learning that the sooner he sits and looks at me the quicker something fun happens.

Another thing you might try is running along a fence. I would put the fence on the side that the dog usually turns into. They learn very quickly to turn tight. I think this gives them some muscle memory and it becomes easier for them to turn tight. I then give them a back so they have to turn into the fence. Obviously they have to do this quite a bit to build that memory so it's a comfortable thing to do. I teaches them to bend it's body. This is just what has worked for us. Good Luck.
 

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Whatever happened to Broadbill?

Evan
 

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Broadbill: I had the same problem with my lab when we began whistle sit on blind work. He would make a big looping sit and end up way off line. The way I cured it was as follows:

I zip-tied some of that orange construction fence to some electric fence posts and made 2 sections that I then put up to create an alley for him to run through.

At first I set up a back pile and put the fence up (fairly wide) to get him used to running through it. To start I had the fence sit up right in front of the back pile and was only running from 10 yards or so.

Then I started Whistle sitting him as he went through the alley which the fence creates.

As he got better at it I moved the fence in to tighten the alley (as well as back from the pile) and I moved back until eventually we were running from about 50 yards and he barely had room to even turn around in the alley.

For me this really helped a lot. Good luck.
 

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Discussion Starter · #11 ·
I just wanted to say thanks for the replies. I asked a question, those of you who were kind enough to help deserve my thanks. Sorry it took so long.

Broadbill
 

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If you know he always does a loopy sit a certain way (i.e) he spins right I would put an object like a fence in the way. Running fence drills helps a long way. So he'll learn that he can't make such a loopy sit because that object like the fence is preventing him from doing so. It helped me tremendously. Plus made his spins real tight left or right on the back command.
 

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If you know he always does a loopy sit a certain way (i.e) he spins right I would put an object like a fence in the way. Running fence drills helps a long way. So he'll learn that he can't make such a loopy sit because that object like the fence is preventing him from doing so. It helped me tremendously. Plus made his spins real tight left or right on the back command.

Good idea - I'll have to try that. Thanks!
 

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I'm on the fence about this (just kidding). ;)

If you are following a proven program, this issue has a solution because it is anticipated. If they loop, it basically means a quick sit is not yet an expectation in that situation. To repeat, a proven sequential program anticipates this possibility....which means, if the dog's sit OB were solid (in all situations) he would not loop......if he does, the trainer knows why and methods to correct it are already in place.

When the tools and skills to deal with it are not truly there, corrective approaches tend to tangentially drift toward crutches and/or gimmicks.
 

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I'm on the fence about this (just kidding). ;)

If you are following a proven program, this issue has a solution because it is anticipated. If they loop, it basically means a quick sit is not yet an expectation in that situation. To repeat, a proven sequential program anticipates this possibility....which means, if the dog's sit OB were solid (in all situations) he would not loop......if he does, the trainer knows why and methods to correct it are already in place.

When the tools and skills to deal with it are not truly there, corrective approaches tend to tangentially drift toward crutches and/or gimmicks.
Without a doubt one of the best answers ever written. And it applies to every single problem that comes up in training.
 

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Start a session with a heeling drill, and a light nick on sit while in the obedience session. Much like collar conditioning. Then move to a 50 foot cord, put dog on sit stay and go to end of rope. Call dog in and sit halfway. If dog doesn't sit promptly, second whistle with nick. Once this looks good, move to BB blinds and same procedure, blow sit whistle if its slow, quick second whistle with nick. Once this is good you now have a tool to use in the field if the dog doesn't sit promptly. Blow quick second whistle with a nick. Rebuild the behaviors from the ground up and give yourself a tool for field work.

/Paul
 

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Based on advice from a pro I train with, a sit whistle followed by a low continuous burn until that dog puts his butt on the ground fixed the problem for me. I sporadically did this over a couple of days to try and avoid any popping issues (which I fortunately did not have). Good luck.
 

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I'm on the fence about this (just kidding). ;)

If you are following a proven program, this issue has a solution because it is anticipated. If they loop, it basically means a quick sit is not yet an expectation in that situation. To repeat, a proven sequential program anticipates this possibility....which means, if the dog's sit OB were solid (in all situations) he would not loop......if he does, the trainer knows why and methods to correct it are already in place.

When the tools and skills to deal with it are not truly there, corrective approaches tend to tangentially drift toward crutches and/or gimmicks.
I read the whole discussion and was wondering when some one would get it right. Jim finally did.
No matter what program you are using, this all comes back to OB. When initially teaching SIT, collar pressure on constant till the butt hits the ground. It needs to be a little high to give the motivation to hurry up and sit, to get rid of the collar pressure. The quicker the sit, the quicker the pressure goes away.
When I was training for the public, I had a couple clients who would not use enough stimulation on the collar to make it a truly motivating factor, rather the pressure was just a nag and thus the dog had no real motivation to hurry up and sit down.
Do it correctly from the start when doing formal OB and it won't be a problem in the field.
I have had a few HRCH and MH out of very high breedings (Carbon, Blue, Cosmo) that were very fast but had good sits in the field. They were so fast, my Blue girl especially, that I had to stay 10/15 yards ahead of them in my mind, and when they would be on wet grass would sometimes slide to a stop. But their intent was to get sat down ASAP from habit.
As to the OP, you might want to go back to OB drills, on lead, with the pinch collar and e collar and really concentrate on getting that quick response on lead in a controlled environment before going any further in the field if you think the loopy sit is really going to cause some issues.
Hope you can get it fixed
MP
 

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Go to RetrieversONLINE and search for past articles on troubleshooting. The basic drill to start is to return to pile work and then transition to BB blinds before returning to cold blinds.
The correction is a second sit whistle and nick. Praise the good, correct the poor, and neither praise nor correct the in between. You will mix stopping the dog close to the line before he gathers a lot if momentum for success with stopping the dog further down the line after gathering momentum to induce a loopy sit and get correction. Always in pile work, you will give plenty of freebies so as not to induce popping.
You should not run cold blinds during this process.

Now if your dog has not been schooled in pile work and the use if indirect pressure, he will likely not understand any of this.

There are a lot of details in the articles that you should read before implementing this process.
The first answer was the best. Good job Mike, I mean Glen.

Jeff Warren
 

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After reading this I decided that My dog Caly could use a little bit of work on her sit. She has a habbit of a wide left hand loop when sitting on blinds. I used the fence method and the burn on the second whistle and now she stops on a dime it only took two days. I know it's not finished but i am having great results. glad i took the time to read this thread.
 
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