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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
I am a novice trainer and am scratching my head on this marking issue. I am running my 10 month old pup off a mound to a land, water, land mark. Its about 50 yards from line to waters edge, then about a 30 yard swim and then about 20 yard to bird. The mark is off a winger with attention getting sound and primer pop then bird thrown from my right to left with white shirt hung off winger. If I throw mark with winger, pup leaves line as if she never saw mark stopping at waters edge then looking back at me. If I walk out myself, shoot shotgun, throw mark, slowly walk back (3 to 5 minute delay) to the line and send her, she runs hard and pins mark. What am I missing????????
 

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Ok im a novice too, but im thinking that you are asking your pup to do something thats too complicated right now. Try simplier marks. Just land or just water. Not both (not yet) get your dog successful on land then water, then combine them and add various features as your dog gets better.

Just my 2 cents...
 

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Discussion Starter · #4 ·
I hear what your saying, but if I do the exact same mark with me throwing rather than winger and then sending from remote or walking back and sending her from my side she nails it.
 

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Discussion Starter · #5 ·
She has no issues with land marks using same winger set up out to 300 yards or running same land water land mark with winger from waters edge.
 

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She has no issues with land marks using same winger set up out to 300 yards or running same land water land mark with winger from waters edge.
So the only time you have an issue is with a long water entry (50 yards to water) to an up and out mark thrown with a winger?

Have you tried the same set up (long entry), to a bird thrown out in the water from a winger rather than throwm up and out?

Long water entries are challenging, maybe the dog isn't seeing the mark from the winger as well as when you are throwing it with arm and body movement. A little uncertainty on the mark combined with the long entry? Just throwing a cople things out there.
 

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Can you get a buddy or somebody to throw that mark? Sometimes it helps to have a gunner yell "hey-hey" or throw a pop up when a dog breaks down enroute.
 

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Discussion Starter · #8 ·
Yep, tried same set up with mark in the water and no problem. For whatever reason I dont think she sees the mark. I think my movement is helping her see the mark. Thats my only guess!
 

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Try working her by slowly distancing her further. Start with throwing your mark more visible, even into the water at a closer range. Then work your way back onto the land (island)a few yards at a time past the last mark until you get her where you want her. Also may want to start with a bumber or dead fowl dummy to keep from overscenting your line to where you ultimately want her to end up.
 

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I have trained only one dog... So this is only a suggestion, so take it with a grain of salt.

Ironically I had similar issues. I train primarily by myself and do a lot of 'walkouts'. When I finally broke down and bought some wingers, I went to use them and my dog acted like he didn't know how to mark. I sought out & received all kinds of device from different people (including pro trainers) that kind of made sense, but didn't really work. I finally got some great advice from a fellow amateur and friend, Brad Overstreet. Dogs learn by association.

Somethings make perfect sense to us, but not to the dog. It maybe as simple as the dog doesn't associate a previously learned concept with the new element or elements involved. Learning becomes much easier and clearer from a dog's prespective when concepts are taught in a step-by-step progression that expands on the foundation of the previous steps.

It may on the surface seem unreasonable, but I suggest to step all the way back. Establish your line, and work your dog on a 50 yard mark (out of the winger) to the leading edge of the water. After your pup is successful, move your mark to the back edge of the pond. After success with that, move the mark to a 20 yard exit out of the water. After success with the full concept, then test your dog on the concept on a different portion of the pond. Leave NO HOLES.

My guess is that you have an extraordinary bond with your dog, and your dog is comfortable/secure in going any where you go (or can see you go). Now he needs to get comfortable going out on his own.
 

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Discussion Starter · #14 ·
I ran the same mark with Labs R Us as the gunner replacing the winger and she had no problem. The movement of the live gunner prior to throw seemed to help her mark it.
 

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I ran the same mark with Labs R Us as the gunner replacing the winger and she had no problem. The movement of the live gunner prior to throw seemed to help her mark it.
theres your answer!

What I did when I first started introducing a winger was to take a white pillow case, and cut a hole in the closed end. Place the pillow case on a coat hanger, and hang it on the winger someplace...

They learn pretty quick to focus on the winger..

Gooser
 

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Discussion Starter · #16 ·
She has run marks with wingers and stickman before and was only a issue on this mark. I am not sure why, but doesnt have an issue with a gunner out throwing this mark.
 

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Long water entry, swim, up and out to bird boy thrown mark = no problem.

Long water entry, swim, up and out to winger thrown mark = problem.

Even though your pup has successfully done the same mark with a live person throwing the bird, and has successfully done a longer land mark with a winger thrown bird, he is failing to complete the up and out to the winger thrown mark.

Dogs have trouble picking up the bird coming out if a winger at warp speed. There is no wind up. A long water entry is challenging, the up and out is challenging. It is not the individual challenges that is causing the pup issues. As you said, he has done all of them in slightly different circumstances. It is the combination of all these things.

I wouldn't just keep on throwing this set up at a dog to see if he can do it. I'd simplify by running up an outs to winger marks but run from the water's edge. I'd do long entries to winger thrown marks but throw out in the water with a splash. When the dog is running well I'd run the long entry combined with the winger marks and the up and out. Simplify to get success, then gradually increase the difficulty.
 

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Get a birdboy instead of winger. If you notice bumpers or birds are thrown pretty fast out of the winger, way faster than hand thrown. That's why shooting flyers out of a winger at field trials sucks.
If no birdboy than put 2 wingers at same station and just before dog stops hit the sound and if you're sure dog is looking fire off the next winger.
Easier if you have a 4 shot bumper boy for throwing more bumpers in route if necessary.
 

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I think she is watching you all the time, when you go out to throw the mark I would bet her eyes never stray from you ....
 
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