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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
I thought I would start a new thread devoted to Marvin's perception of what makes a qualified and maybe good judge.

I will agree that consideration for the person and at what level of training they are with their dog does have some merit. My problem (along with many others) is that this is not the only, nor the best indicator of a good judge.

First and foremost a judge must have integrity. No amount of experience and success means anything without honesty and fairness. This is why some people are routinely "passed over" for judging assignments (and rightfully so).

Unfortunately Marvin only uses a dog and handlers colored ribbon count for measuring. How foolish. No accounting of super dogs trained or bought from others with marginal handlers. No accounting for handlers that train very marginal dogs to higher levels. No accounting for green ribbons that often are harder to come by in one region or on a particular weekend than some blue ribbons.

Look at all the dogs a pro washes out. Compare that to the Amateur owner that never washes out a dog, but, occaisonally gets a green ribbon.

As also been stated previously, some handlers have FC/AFC dogs that they have titled, yet they can't set up good tests.

Some folks only run a few trials per year, yet train and set up test daily.

Some have much experience with running dogs and judging at local club trials. Sometimes they even beat local "big time" dogs, yet this means nothing in your equation.

Being away five years, or even three years is an eternity in the ever- evolving world of field trials. I would rather be judged by someone that trains/competes regularly and gets a green ribbon from time to time than by someone with a pro trained dog that places yet lacks "retriever knowledge".

I sure wish more people would visit Marvin's site. Then I would have more time to run my dogs and perhaps be more "qualified" to judge since according to Marvin's Magical Formula I have no business judging AA stakes at all.

Remember, a little knowledge is a dangerous thing and half of the story (or less) will often lead to a faulty conclusion.

I'm off to judge a trial I'm "barely" qualified for. :wink:


John
 

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Good luck hacking your way through it John. Hey, when you come back from donating your time, money and efforts that are doomed to failure, you can throw yourself under the bus by explaining how messed up your test was....

/Paul
 

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John Gassner said:
I'm off to judge a trial I'm "barely" qualified for. :wink:


John
John, yer judgin' the Junior Stakes again.................. :lol:

Don't worry yer time will come as ya grow in retriever savy........... :p
 

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I guess I agree with a lot of what John says. It occurs to me that field trials are not hunt tests where you have to meet a certain standard with a dog and you title it. You compete against the best trained and best bred dogs out there. I can believe that there are many extremely competent dog people out there that take many years before they find the right dog that they start bringing in ribbons with.

Does that make them less able than those who can afford to get their dog pro trained, washing out many dogs in rapid succession in search of the special dog or dogs?
 

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John

I would appreciate your going to my website & reading all the JUDGES page. Then would you explain to me how you came to the conclusions about my thinking that were in your post!!

Marvin S
 

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Hey, I'm running Dazee in the stake John is judging this weekend so I'll give you all an honest critique of his test setups and judging abilities . . .

. . .

of course, Dazee's final placement in the stake will have absolutely no bearing on my opinions :lol:

Debbie
 

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Hey Hey Hey dont get on poor ole John dont let him fool you he co-owns a dog with JH behind his name. Dont ever short sell yourself buddy I am behind you 100%
 

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Discussion Starter · #8 ·
Marvin, I have visited your website several times. I just checked it again to make sure that no major changes had taken place. It still looks about the same.

You have created your website to promote your ideas/thoughts/opinions. Some I agree with. Others I don't.

Just because they are your opinions (or even mine) doesn't make them automatically right or wrong. You express them like they are ALL facts. I have a slight problem with this, but again-it's your website, just don't expect everyone to agree with you. I think I am entitled to form my own opinions such as how to train my dogs and who to run under and when I am qualified to judge a certain event.

Your "factoids" are not entirely correct. This is a bigger problem for me. I only checked out the one judge I know all the facts about.....ME, and they were wrong! Your whole site exists on the premise of the "facts" being accurate and the primary criteria for judging ability since it is the only formula you use to "qualify" or approve judges.

You are using flawed logic. Your premises are not complete and valid and therefore your conclusion is flawed.

Please let me know of one single field trial giving club and/or judges selection committee that has used your formula exclusively. Just one. Do you think they/we are all wrong? Do you think the Emperor wears nice clothes?

If your facts were correct, then your site and statistics would be mildly entertaining/interesting trivia. Unfortunately this is not the case.

I agree with many of your opinions as do many others. I just don't agree with your opinion that your flawed stats are the best way to determine one's ability to judge.

With apologies to Melanie regards

John
 

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Debbie said:
Hey, I'm running Dazee in the stake John is judging this weekend so I'll give you all an honest critique of his test setups and judging abilities . . .

. . .

of course, Dazee's final placement in the stake will have absolutely no bearing on my opinions :lol:

Debbie
Look at it this way. If you win, you're automatically a better judge than everyone else entered.... :lol: :lol: :lol:

/Paul
 

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John, if you're not qualified to judge am I going to have to do all of the work when we judge the Open at the Chessie National this fall? :D
 

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itilii said:
I would appreciate your going to my website & reading all the JUDGES page. Then would you explain to me how you came to the conclusions about my thinking that were in your post!!
It appears to me the "Judges Page" is full of idealistic platitudes with which few would care to disagree.

But it has nothing to do with the statistical premise of the rest of the site. :?
 

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[quote="Gun_Dog2002
Look at it this way. If you win, you're automatically a better judge than everyone else entered.... :lol: :lol: :lol:

/Paul[/quote]

Then the phone will be ringing off the hook with judging assignments and if I take them I won't be able to train and trial as much and my dog might not get any more placements - but, what the heck, I'll be one heck of a judge . . . for a while, anyway :roll: . . . until the stats catch up with me. :twisted:

Debbie
 

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Has anyone noticed that John and Keith are on the same sidein this discussion? Is this a first time ever event, or I just havent been around long enough? :?
 

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Debbie said:
[quote="Gun_Dog2002
Look at it this way. If you win, you're automatically a better judge than everyone else entered.... :lol: :lol: :lol:

/Paul
Then the phone will be ringing off the hook with judging assignments and if I take them I won't be able to train and trial as much and my dog might not get any more placements - but, what the heck, I'll be one heck of a judge . . . for a while, anyway :roll: . . . until the stats catch up with me. :twisted:

Debbie[/quote]

Its a vicious cycle...

/Paul
 

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I think Marvin does not like things as they are now and is doing something about it. Is it right or wrong? Who knows but you can’t fault the guy for causing as much discussion as there has been on the topic on various boards. His may not be the solution, but maybe somewhere in the discussions a good idea will come up and make the entire sport better. Or not. Can’t fault him for trying
 

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2tall said:
Has anyone noticed that John and Keith are on the same sidein this discussion? Is this a first time ever event, or I just havent been around long enough? :?
you haven't been around long enough to know that John Gassner and John Fallon (Keith's protagonist) are very far from being the same person :wink:
 

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badbullgator said:
I think Marvin does not like things as they are now and is doing something about it. Is it right or wrong? Who knows but you can’t fault the guy for causing as much discussion as there has been on the topic on various boards. His may not be the solution, but maybe somewhere in the discussions a good idea will come up and make the entire sport better. Or not. Can’t fault him for trying
Ditto!

Good or bad, at least someone is TRYING to do something. Is it perfect? No. Can it get better with time and more input? Probably.
 

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John

I won't try to answer all your comments but do want to go at your comment of saying your record is wrong on ftretrieverjudge.net.

On the JUDGES page - COMMENTS - 3rd line down - ftretrieverjudge.net speaks only to item (2) - The known qualifications with dogs & trials.
On the APPROVED page - Added 3-21-2007 - There will be new notations behind some judges names: ---- the 2nd - Co-Owner - is a temporary response to giving some credit for co-ownership situations. There is more if you care to read it. Previously no credit was given.

Judge ID Z4167 means your data may not be complete (STATUS)

You have owned 1 dog - Colonel Jack, GM, born 6-17-1990. placed 3rd in a Derby in 1992.

You Co-Own AFC Lacrosse Max Q Jake, GM, with Andy Whitely

Tell me what was missed.

Marvin
 
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