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What do you think the maximum number of entries for an HRC Finished flight should be?

  • 20 Dogs

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  • 22 Dogs

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  • 25 Dogs

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  • 30 Dogs

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Discussion Starter #1
After talking with some people over the weekend, this question came up. I wanted to get the experts' opinions. Thanks!

Rob
 

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20 would be my vote. If you do that number you are able to setup two good test. 30 you would have to water down one of the test just to finish before dark.

There were 20 dogs in a Finished Test that I ran yesterday the finished up a 5:30. If there would have been 30 we may not have finished in one day.
 

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I Like the idea of more than finished flight. 20 or 25 dog's max pre flight. I think that the trial at Ohio river was done very very good. I like it when the judges, can put on a very good test that when time frame is not important. But the test doesn't have to be long marks, You can put in the consepts that will make it a good do able test. Just my thinking!!
Terry
 

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Our club limits to 25 dogs at our test. You should be able to run 25 dogs and get done by 5:00. The biggest mistake I've seen is running more than 25 dogs in Season. Season takes longer than finished and I make sure we don't have more than 25 dogs in season.
 

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kimsmith said:
Season takes longer than finished. . . .
Seriously? Things must have changed a lot since I ran HRC. Finished ALWAYS took longer -- more marks, longer and more difficult blinds.
 

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At our hunt test we ran about 20 dogs in each flight the marks were shorter nothing over 75 yards (hunting marks) and we still split the field in pass/fail. You would be amazed on how many dogs we lost on the short marks I believe 20 to 25 dogs per flight is about right.
 

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If you have 25 finished dogs and 25 seasoned dogs, most of the time seasoned will take longer to finish up. Too many separate, moving parts. Seasoned blinds can eat up a lot of time, and most seasoned handlers will run their dog on the the second set-up whether they can pass or not. Most finished handlers, if they know they are out, will not run the second series. I have seen lots of seasoned tests be the last test to finish up.

25 finished dogs is about right. Any fewer, and I think clubs would have trouble making much money on the test unless they have a good raffle and dinner.
 

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Discussion Starter #8
In looking at the results thus far, I see a fair number support the 30 dog limit. Without starting a urinating contest, I'd like to hear why you chose that #. Here are my concerns with 30 dog flights:

1. Watered-down tests to get all the dogs run.
2. Dogs running at dusk (I've done this, and it ain't fun)
3. Working Judges to death!
4. Working Bird Boys to death!
5. Long, long wait by handlers and their dogs
6. Working Judges to death!
7. The unknown weather factor. By that, I mean that it could make for an unnecessary long day in inclement weather.
8. Working Judges to death!

Again, I'm not trying to start a urinating contest. I'm just throwing stuff out there.

For the record, I support Finished AND Seasoned flights being limited at 22 dogs. Ours will not have any more than that. At our spring test, we ran 25 Seasoned dogs on Saturday. BIG MISTAKE! The Seasoned test didn't get finished until 7:30 p.m. The judges, who were AWESOME, set up a good, fair Seasoned test, but with 25 dogs, they were worked way too hard, as were our bird throwers. When they all got back to the HQ, they looked like they'd been beat to death. I felt bad for them because I was the one to blame. We won't make that mistake again.

Rob
 

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I voted for 25 in Finished. This is a good number to print on the premium, as it allows for that 1 or 2 walk ups, and doesn't exceed the max allowable from National. Our test and many in Region 13, have been running split finished levels the past two years, with 25 per flight.

But we still accomodate the walk up, and I'd be hard pressed to tell a club as a judge, to turn away that one or two over, just so I could "set up a challenging test". I mostly test according to the grounds available and what they provide, not the numbers in the test.

Much of the time consumption is not having enough birds available, and lack of re-birding people to handle that chore quickly. Re-birding via boat is anathema to me. I'd look for different grounds before having that albatross hung around my neck.

I agree with the view about having any more in Seasoned than 25. That test by the very nature of the rules, makes it a time consuming project. The various parts are to be spread apart, and finding a locale where those parts are legal, but nearby is an art unto itself.

That test is just plain conducive to lots of walking on the part of the participants AND the judges. To make that test go smoothly, and as quickly as possible requires plenty of equipment, so guns aren't lugged from station to station with all the safety measures that entails.

When judging with Ken Newcomb at his clubs inaugural, we had three guns in 3 seperate stands for the walkup, blind, and land marks. It worked very well and went reasonably fast. Plus we had plenty of birds, and excellant birdboy help. Needless to say it was quite enjoyable, but we don't always find the ideal set up.

After chiding Ken, while watching him walk several miles at another seasoned test he was judging later, he found me doing the same far-flung seperation and trudging up and down sand hills along the Platte river at one my co-judge and I just couldn't make simple. Causes lots of leg cramps at night.

For me personally, judging Finished IS an easier assignment than Seasoned. Also judging AKC Master and Senior is also an easier test for me than the HRC Seasoned. Except for the Master's 3rd series requiring time management, I can sleep far easier after doing any of those tests, than I do after all the hiking I do at a Seasoned test. And after doing 5 of them this year, I'm on notice...not in 2006. :roll:

UB
 

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vote

I voted for 30 dogs, and here's my reasoning....

The Finished test usually doesn't suffer due to having 30 dogs in a flight. Most tests in general get into a bind when multiple handlers have multiple dogs in all 3 stakes..... my opinion is that the alotted 8 entries should go into no more than 2 stakes. When you consider a truck carrying 2 handlers, 16 dogs, and 3 stakes to cover, the Finished test is going to either 1) be run first (Lord help the started judges) 2) be run second (Lord help the Seasoned call-marshal or 3) be run last (Lord help everyone involved).

If a handler has only 2 flights to run, that's much easier done than all 3.

I vote to keep the 30 dog flight, and limit the stakes to run.
 

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Consensus seems to be that seasoned is thew bottleneck. I vote for 25.

Kim Smith set up and judged me in a seasoned test in Nashville this spring. It was smooth and efficient with the walk up on the way to the line, the blind run first, 2 marks and a diversion in the first series. All that was left was a double and a blind for the afternoon. If I remember coerrectly, we were finshed by 4 P.M. on Sunday.

The problem with time seems to be when a multiple dog handler is near the bottom of the running order in 2 different stakes. Clubs and marshals need to look at the multiple dog handlers and make sure that they coordinate correctly so "multiple dog handler A" runs seasoned first and finished next and "multiple dog handler B" runs finished first and seasoned next. Work in the single dog handlers so there is a dog in the holding blind all the time.
 

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HRC Finished #'s

I would say 30 but with clubs using common sense. If the grounds being used by a club have running water, you can run 30 Finished dogs on quality tests and finish without problems. But if you know your grounds have swimming water to work with, you should choose to only have 20 - 25.

By the way Uncle Bill. The number a club posts on their premium is ALL that they can run under a set of judges. In other words, if your premium states 25 dogs, that is all you can run. No allowance for walkups unless you add another flight.

Seasoned numbers really need to be lowered. Our club decided to only accept 30 dogs per flight of Seasoned. I agree with everyone that the elements of the seasoned test being serparated is the biggest part of it.

Janet
 

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i said 30 dogs also. I have never had a problem with finishing on time, unless the weather became a factor and in those cases in didn't matter if I would have only had 5 dogs to judge.

Here is my take on the #'s thing. I don't like turning people away from a hunt! I do see judges who set up test on sunday that are totally different then the ones they did on saturday for the sole reason of wanting to leave earlier on sunday. Here is the thing....when you accept a judging assignment you are volunteering for the weekend. Trust me I've been as far away as 8-9 hours from home to judge and time was not my #1 concern when setting up test.

Judges lose more time by not preparing properly. If your going to have a long walk to the line, then you need at least 5 or 6 holding blinds available. If you have one pro with a ton of dogs....run them last on morning and first on evening test. Tell them at check in that morning! It's alot easier. Take time and have both test ready to run. If you have to move equipment.....HELP MOVE IT!

Here is the biggest waste of time I see in seasoned test. between the walkup and then going to the bucket for the test. It's simple, to get around the handler having to put the dog on lead after the walkup to go to the bucket for the rest of the test (which is a rule) I do Walkouts when I judge seasoned.

It's simple. run the test from the line, take last bird, grab shell and walk out and get a "walk UP". Saves a ton of time.

One other thing, Tell handlers when they have failed, have a bye dog and pickup dog ready at ALL times. Always think about the number of birds you send to each gun station! Don't break for lunch! Let the birdboys eat on the way to the other test, while YOU help clean up. Usually saves at least an hour!

Always HELP THE MARSHALL
 

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Discussion Starter #15
Janet:

I am being told there is a 10% rule that has become "accepted." I have not, however, been able to confirm that with any of the Field Reps. Supposedly, this 10% rule was to accommodate the walk-up handlers. I'm thinking the 10% rule is 100% B.S.

What's the official word from a member of the HRC Royal Family? Thanks!

Rob
 

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HRC #'s

Rob,

Back in the day of A or AA hunts where the guidelines were based on total dogs and you listed on your premiums how many dogs you would accept in each level, there was a 10% rule. Say you posted that your entries would stop in Finished at 60 (with two flights) you could take 66.

When the BOD decided to do away with that format and set a maximum amount per set of judges there is not % over allowed. What is set on your premium per set of judges is IT. If you get more dogs than that you have to add another flight.

Hope this helps.

Janet
 

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I don't understand what you are talking about when you say what you put on your premium is it. If you put on your premium 25 dogs and 1 more shows up, you could add that dog to that flight because you didn't go over 30. Do you think HRC or UKC cares what you have on your premium?
 

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I agree with the time wasted on sitting up and finding out about the sun coming up in the East for some reason that day is a time consuming and wasting of time in the morning. But if you have a 30 dog entry and start right on time (say 8:00) for the land series and run 9 dogs an hour, allow for rebirding and other problems that come up you are looking at a 4+ hr test.
Now take an hour break for lunch and to move equipment to another location and set it up for your water test, have your handler meeting and your test dog run It will be around 1:30-2:00 before the first dog runs. Judges setup a nice test, but all swimming water. Let's look at 4 dogs per hour on this water test. That's 7hrs and 50 mins. If all dogs come back to run the afternoon test. Starting at 1:30, what time do you think you would finish up.. LATE
Take for example a test I ran this past weekend. We had 20 dogs and finished at 5:30, no problem add 10 more dogs and your looking at getting done after 8:00. The water test was 4 dogs an hour.
By limiting the number of dogs in Finished to 20-22 dogs allows judges to setup better test and not watered down ones. I personally get more out of a good challenging test, then a test that has been watered down due to a larger entry.
If you have a 30 dog entry you probally have a waiting list, why not spilt the entries and have two flights and fill them with the waiting list dogs.
If the premium says 20 dogs is the cut off and that number is reached 3 weeks prior to the test. then there are no walk ups allowed. If on the day of the test there are 17 dogs entered then 3 walk-ups would be allowed. If clubs did allow three walk-ups to enter after the 20 dog cut was met, then they just screwed 3 dogs that were turned away due to the entries being full.
If I were a judge and setup a test for 20 dogs that day and find out that morning, just before we start to run, that I now have 26 dogs. I would be very upset....
 

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Re: HRC Finished #'s

jksboxofchocolates said:
By the way Uncle Bill. The number a club posts on their premium is ALL that they can run under a set of judges. In other words, if your premium states 25 dogs, that is all you can run. No allowance for walkups unless you add another flight.

Janet
I find that to be pure garbage. If the HRC limit is 30, just who is being hurt by turning away that extra walk up? The club...and the participant. A self imposed "flight size" should be able to be exceeded without some National edict entering into the equation, especially if it's under the National Limit.

When our club ran only one flight of 30, we had to turn away 10 entries that year. It was one of the most hurtful situations I've had to enforce, and vowed to never again have to do that. So we split into 2 25's. Now you are telling me the folks in the Ivory Tower will demand we can't exceed that??? and if we do we MUST get another set of judges, and another set of equipment, and another location, to run one dog???? Give me a break!!! Is there no common sense left among this program???

I've been to, and judged several flights that went a dog or two over the 'clubs' stated limits. I've yet to hear that HRC fined any of us for sending in too much money because we had an extra dog or two. So if our attempt to placate a handler or two is a violation, then refund the money from UKC, and fine us. Put us on probation. We could use the time off from adding to the coffers of the National.

UB
 
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