[Doug Grant]

Nine Basic Principles For Successful Handling:

1: Every dog is an individual.
2: Never lie to a dog.
3: Whenever possible, use a positive instead of a negative approach.
4: Never finish a training session with a failure.
5: Stress the fundamentals.
6: Teach only one thing at a time.
7: Don't be afraid to experiment.
8: Balance correction with praise.
9: There is nothing quite so valuable as a day off.

Sound like some great new training philosophy? No, this was written by Martha Covington (Martha Covington Thorne) in her book 'Handling Your Dog For Show, Obedience and Field Trials', published by Doubleday in August of 1979. Yes, that's right, 1979! I first met Martha at a Montreal Gun Dog Club trial in the early 60's; I think her 9 points are very valid today.
...Bopper

 

[MRGD]

Most of those are pretty good concepts.

tt

 

[Buzz]

Most of those are pretty good concepts.

tt

Which do you think aren't so good?

 

[MRGD]

Experimenting can backfire, though I'm not opposed per se', but the new idea might be a really bad one.

 

[Angie B]

Experimenting can backfire, though I'm not opposed per se', but the new idea might be a really bad one.

You won't know until you try. That's the chance you take when being a true trainer. We want dogs to take a chance, try and make mistakes. We should allow ourselves the same luxury.

Not all dogs stay to the tried and true.

Also, how does a dog know your lying? Do they really think that way?

You gotta crack a few eggs to get a omelet regards,

Angie

 

[afdahl]

Also, how does a dog know your lying? Do they really think that way?

Angie

I don't know how they think, but my gut feeling is: follow this rule. Maybe because dogs are tuned into all kinds of subtleties we don't know we're communicating, or because they notice that the consequences don't match what we led them to expect, it seems like we lose credibility fast.

Amy Dahl

 

[Angie B]

Also, how does a dog know your lying? Do they really think that way?

Angie

I don't know how they think, but my gut feeling is: follow this rule. Maybe because dogs are tuned into all kinds of subtleties we don't know we're communicating, or because they notice that the consequences don't match what we led them to expect, it seems like we lose credibility fast.

Amy Dahl

I think alot of what we teach them doesn't make sense to them. How could it? Especially in the teaching phase. Then add to that how we false line at trials or give a cast that isn't literal to get the dog to the bird? Then where are you? If the phrase "Don't lie to your dog" has any credability then we would have to find a whole new way to train for this game.

The phrase is stupid and irrelevant in my opinion. Dog training is anything but that simplistic.....

FWIW

Angie

 

[Howard N]

The phrase is stupid and irrelevant in my opinion. Dog training is anything but that simplistic.....

Angie stated it much stronger than I would have, but she's 100% right.

9: There is nothing quite so valuable as a day off.

Many many of the dogs I see suffer from to many days off. :?

Over off the point regards,

 

[afdahl]

I never false line a dog, and IMO "literal casting" is an abstraction that has no bearing on this issue. I give the dog the cast that I think will get him going in the direction I want.

I have been known to try to tempt a puppy back by showing him another dummy, and of course they rarely fall for that a second time.

I can't think of another situation where I intentionally deceive a dog. IMO the advice on the original list is good.

Amy Dahl

 

[Angie B]

I never false line a dog, and IMO "literal casting" is an abstraction that has no bearing on this issue. I give the dog the cast that I think will get him going in the direction I want.

Interesting,,,, If the dog takes a literal cast, it should put them on the bird shouldn't it? That at least is why I use it. In the teaching process that hardly happens so I must be lying to my dog. Get my drift?? :wink:

I can't think of another situation where I intentionally deceive a dog. IMO the advice on the original list is good.

Dirt clod drill, cast off the point drill, pattern blinds that have casts used from one blind to the next.... The list is endless in the literal sense of the phrase, lying to the dog.....

You never have false lined a dog at a trial when the factors were extreme and the test told you that if you didn't false line that you weren't going to survive much less succeed at the test???? Come on..... It happens every weekend... Heck I've watch many a national where it happened. It had to happen otherwise they weren't going to complete the test in a way that was going to get them called back.

Nothing but a bunch of liars regards...

Angie

 

[Guest]

Experimenting can backfire, though I'm not opposed per se', but the new idea might be a really bad one.

substitute "experiment" with "challenge" and the statement becomes appropriate. I would believe, based on her other philosophies, that this is the sense in which the phrase was made, but it's just not in "our" lingo

And I think the "lying" is being taken way out of context. I, also, don't know many folks that false line any more. And this goes back to one of the nasty threads where everybody got up in arms on both sides about "anthropomorphism"...

I would say "lying" may have been intended in the sense of setting a dog up to fail and then correcting it. This is different than challenging a dog and presenting it with something for which it may receive a correction.

I think it's a nice list and very much mimics Mike Lardy's training philosophies.

-K

 

[Trevor Toberny]

I see false lines all the time when the factors call for it. Steep slope or wind and terrain.

 

[Guest]

I see false lines all the time when the factors call for it. Steep slope or wind and terrain.

Why does that stuff call for a false line?

 

[Trevor Toberny]

if the dogs are sucking down wind of the bird too far or falling off hill to far you line them up a little further up.I saw it at a trial last year where there were a bunch of dogs doing this and along came some Pros that started lining up the dog a little further up than the intial line and they all seemed to start doing it and the dog work improved.

 

[Angie B]

I see false lines all the time when the factors call for it. Steep slope or wind and terrain.

Why does that stuff call for a false line?

Not in training but at a trial. For example a 350 yd mark or blind with a strong crosswind, steep terrain that's hard to negotitate that will put a dog where it shouldn't be. Or a water blind that's a long swim with cold water and a posion bird that's close to the line, along with a strong crosswind.

A intitial false line will get you a true line in the face of factors at a trial. Remember dogs are trial and collar wise.

I would say "lying" may have been intended in the sense of setting a dog up to fail and then correcting it.

A perfect example is dirt clod drill.

Unfortunately I don't think everyone really knows the meaning of the term lying to a dog. They like to throw that term around when the intent may be good, but in actuality nothing could be farther from the truth.

Angie

 

[afdahl]

I still don't false line under any of those conditions. I get the dog looking at the destination. I might lean a little, but I want him looking where he's going to go. Then I trust to his training and discipline to stay on line.

If those blinds with steep sidehills and crosswinds were marks, it'd be the same--rely on the discipline of a dog's training to keep him straight as he goes to the known destination.

I don't want to imply that I think anyone else should train by my rules--just that I am one trainer who tries to adhere to the "never lie to your dog" principle. I think it's important to my training.

I don't use dirt clod drills FWIW; a cast off a point is an instruction to get off the point. I mean it, too, and will follow up if the dog does not do it.

Amy Dahl

 

[Angie B]

I still don't false line under any of those conditions. I get the dog looking at the destination. I might lean a little, but I want him looking where he's going to go. Then I trust to his training and discipline to stay on line.

If those blinds with steep sidehills and crosswinds were marks, it'd be the same--rely on the discipline of a dog's training to keep him straight as he goes to the known destination.

I agree totally in training,,, not at a trial. For one because I don't have as literal a dog at a trial as I do in training....

I don't use dirt clod drills FWIW;

Too bad,,, great drill that can teach alot of lessons....

a cast off a point is an instruction to get off the point.

But what if that cast off the point isn't a literal cast to the bird. Well there ya go..... :?

It's one of those deals that can go on and on.

I take lying to the dog as being inconsistent with your standard.... You can do just about anything else but that one will get a dog not trusting you in a NY minute....

Angie

 

[Angie B]

substitute "experiment" with "challenge" and the statement becomes appropriate.

If that was the case there wouldn't be 10 different ways to teach a concept. No challenge about it. Train with enough well respected trainers and you will find alot of experimentation went into their techniques....

Angie

 

[blind ambition]

Dirt clod drill, cast off the point drill, pattern blinds that have casts used from one blind to the next.... The list is endless in the literal sense of the phrase, lying to the dog.....


Nothing but a bunch of liars regards...

Angie

Don't be so hard on yourself, those examples you cite are just half truths; there is always a retrieve for them in the end, correct?

I take the authors recommendations as ideals or guiding principles, if you prefer, when training. Something worth thinking about before giving a cast or a correction.
The only time I lie, is when I tell them they'll get a steak if they bring home a ribbon... they get one after every event no matter what!

 

[Guest]

substitute "experiment" with "challenge" and the statement becomes appropriate.

If that was the case there wouldn't be 10 different ways to teach a concept. No challenge about it. Train with enough well respected trainers and you will find alot of experimentation went into their techniques....

Angie

This is not about developing a TECHNIQUE or teaching a CONCEPT or designing a PROGRAM. This is about a PHILOSOPHY -- an OVERALL approach in your head versus any specific skill or program -- when training dogs.

-K