RetrieverTraining.Net - the RTF banner
1 - 20 of 26 Posts

·
Registered
Joined
·
236 Posts
Discussion Starter · #1 ·
Okay, despite it being over 90 degrees today, I'm wearing my full camo outfit (flameproof) and carrying a stick which is supposed to be a gun. I see a group of RTFers sitting in the shade under a tree and walk up to ask them a couple judging questions; I did my apprenticeship in April but have yet to judge and like to discuss things I see which I believe to be out of the ordinary. When I post my query I am criticized publically (and privately) for asking such a question (new master judge and all that); I'm also criticized about how my dog works and the clothing I am wearing. I thought this forum was supposed to be a good place to discuss training and judging issues.

Many of you do not know that in "real life" I am a primary care physician-now retired. I have found throughout my 35+ years in practice that I can always learn something new from others (not just physicians as other health care workers also have valuable insights and ideas). Thank goodness when I was an intern (a newly certified doctor, if you will), when I asked another physician for an opinion about a patient I was dealing with, I was met with an open mind and not criticism for not having the answer. There is alot to medicine which is not in the books and I have always found it valuable to consult with others over new or difficult issues. As I've become the "experienced" doctor, I've enjoyed passing my knowledge on to those who are new. When we consult with each other, we are careful to protect the identities of our patients (unless they are shared) and do not ever purposely denigrate them

I approach this forum in the same manner but guess I may be wrong about it. Yes, I am relatively new to this sport having qualified my first master dog only last September. I am not a hunter so according to many on this forum have no business even considering becoming a judge. I'll
do as good a job as I can. I can read all the rules but there is still alot to learn about how to interpret them. I believe that I learn best by discussing particular issues which I have encountered with those who have more experience. I know the AKC rules but am interested in how experienced judges interpret them.

So, is there a place on RTF to ask questions about judging issues without the severe criticism? Is this a "good old boys" club to which I can never belong because I don't run a black dog? Because I don't hunt, am I not a suitable candidate to become and AKC judge??
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
395 Posts
Maybe you should hook up with a Nahra group, they're much more friendly and helpfull. Now I'll be the one getting hammered for mentioning the "N" word.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
5,356 Posts
One thing to keep in mind is that there is no more thankless job than judging. If you're truly wearing your "flameproof" camo, then you'll take the advice that was offered in the spirit in which is was offered and move on. Let your feelings get hurt and you might as well never sit in judgement of dogs for real the first time.

You'll learn that when you're sitting in judgement of other's dogs, you and your co-judge will have to be KEENLY aware of EVERYTHING that's going on in front of the holding blind AT ALL TIMES. As an example from the situation you first proffered, one judge watches the working dog and the other watches the honoring dog (or at least that's the way it SHOULD be set up in an honoring test, even a walk-up with an honor). If the working dog handler is making too much noise trying to control their dog coming to the line, the working dog judge needs to have the intestinal fortitude to tell that handler to go back to the holding blind and try coming the line again UNDER CONTROL, remembering that DURING A REAL HUNT, there might very well be birds working the decoys as you get set up to hunt/do the test, and a handler that can't get their dog under control is not going to be a welcome hunting partner on that day. The dog and handler TEAM are either prepared to be judged to The Standard, or they aren't...on that day.

The next advice I have for ANYONE who wants to judge is to become INTIMATELY FAMILIAR with the regs/guidelines and all the nuances therein. You can't read them too many times. Each time you do, you'll find something new, or relearn something you might have forgotten. Try to judge with as many "old salts" as you can....and LISTEN every chance you get.

Don't wear your heart on your sleeve....and good luck! :wink:

kg
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
2,869 Posts
I dont know you and bet you are a very good person and I may get ripped for this but I think judges should be people that have been in the field and have been in this sport for some time.I hope you have fun and get to judges since I guess you really want.How many hunt test have you ran in ? You shouldnt let what goes on here get to you because there will ALWAYS be someone with negative to say wheter it be here or on another board.Good Luck to you.
 

·
Administrator
Joined
·
3,871 Posts
Christine,

Just a couple of observations on my part.

It seems best to use "hypothetical" scenarios when asking questions... it helps to keep the subject from becoming "personal". In the thread about the noise from the honor dog, because it was a real situation where others had "the other side of the story" and pictures, it opened up a whole 'nother can of worms, ie the attire of the handlers and the judge.

There are a lot of knowledgeable people on RTF. I believe that most are more than willing to share some of their knowledge, but don't want to get involved in the "personal" cat fights.

Also, if you think about it, having someone that has said they are new to the game getting ready to judge Master can be worrisome. As you stated, there is more to judging than just knowing the rules and regulations (HT). I'm not suggesting that someone new isn't "qualified" to judge Master but it might be best to start a judging career in Junior with an experienced co-judge and then continue to move up to judging Master.

I'm sure there will be other opinions and won't be surprised if someone disagrees with what I've said......but that's all part of RTF.

Vicky
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
5,356 Posts
Maybe you should hook up with a Nahra group, they're much more friendly and helpfull.
Glad to know everyone that runs NAHRA is more friendly and helpful than anyone that runs AKC events.

Am I the only one that thinks this comment was uncalled for in this context? Was this answer helpful to the original poster?

kg
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,140 Posts
Try judging local club tests/trials. Also WC/WCX type tests. There is so much going on at the line the first couple of times you do it.

You might also want to try and "judge" your training group!

Communication with your co-judge before during and after each series really helps, as does being on the same page with your stake marshal and the Chairman.

Just as in your professional life, you will learn from all as you go along.


Good Luck

John
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
206 Posts
ChrisRobt...keep asking questions, here and in groups. Also like KG said, read the rules frequently, they seem to change a little bit, from time to time, depending upon your frame of mind and experience. Also, each time you judge, you will run into different situations that will call upon your 'book' knowledge and experience to draw a conclusion, most of the time with considerable discussion with your co-judge. The more you judge, to a point, your way of seeing things may change somewhat, that is why your discussions and questions are a good thing. The exact opposite of your attitude is the new Master judge who thinks they know everything........I would much prefer to run under you.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
395 Posts
K G said:
Maybe you should hook up with a Nahra group, they're much more friendly and helpfull.
Glad to know everyone that runs NAHRA is more friendly and helpful than anyone that runs AKC events.

Am I the only one that thinks this comment was uncalled for in this context? Was this answer helpful to the original poster?

kg
This is just my experience. I have run tests in all 3 venues. Never have I been snubbed at a Nahra or HRC event, and I've never had anyone at the akc event introduce themselves or be helpful in any way. Take it like you want, but this is just my personal experience and the reason that I will never attend an akc event again.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
236 Posts
Discussion Starter · #11 ·
Vicky Trainor said:
Christine,


Also, if you think about it, having someone that has said they are new to the game getting ready to judge Master can be worrisome. As you stated, there is more tojudging than just knowing the rules and regulations (HT). I'm not suggesting that someone new isn't "qualified" to judge Master but it might be best to start a judging career in Junior with an experienced co-judge and then continue to move up to judging Master.

Vicky
When I say I'm new to this game, I mean at the master level; I have been running in hunt tests since they began, at first with show Goldens and now with IWS. I entered and failed my first MH test around 5 years ago and am proud to say that my present CH/MH IWS Nike is wholly trained by myself. I did work with a pro for a while as we ran up through senior level but he never had her to train and I did all the master level training myself. I'll always wonder if she could have done better with a pro, but I've learned so much that I don't mind "holding her back". I think most of her MH failures were my fault...

I'm certainly open to judging a lower levels and have asked local clubs to consider me as a jumior level judge so I can run (or perhaps I should say "try to run") my young male in senior tests. Right now I am training with not only a group at the hunt test levels but also aiming to try my hand at field trials (Nike got a greenie in her first Qual last Fall).

I will read the regs as often as needed but would also like to be able to ask questions about nuances here where there are som many experienced judges and handlers...
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
173 Posts
fowl hunter said:
I dont know you and bet you are a very good person and I may get ripped for this but I think judges should be people that have been in the field and have been in this sport for some time.I hope you have fun and get to judges since I guess you really want.How many hunt test have you ran in ? You shouldnt let what goes on here get to you because there will ALWAYS be someone with negative to say wheter it be here or on another board.Good Luck to you.
You sure do ask alot of folks for thier resume and I dont believe I have seen you posting up yours.


Just saying

Zack
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
109 Posts
No doubt others will chastise both of us, but here is my take on your post:

Ch. 1, Sec. 6, Para. 6: "Note* It is strongly recommended that only those judges with extensive background in the hunting of waterfowl and/or upland game be invited to judge an AKC Retriever Hunting Test."

Ch. 1, Sec. 6, Para. 10: "At the Master test level and each division thereof, one Judge shall have qualified a dog or dogs (5) times at the Master level. At the Senior and Junior test levels and each division thereof, one Judge shall have qualified a dog or dogs four (4) times either at the level being judged or at a higher test level. Monitoring the qualifications of judges is the responsibilitiy of the event-giving club."

As a HT Secretary, I admit that it is difficult to monitor these qualifications of judges. AKC does not track this information. An EntryExpress search can be of some help, but only so far back in time.

I'll attend a judging seminar in July to be eligible to judge Junior tests, despite handling failures at the Master level. Best of luck to you and all who are willing to volunteer to judge AKC hunt tests. As for AKC field trial judges: we're unworthy; we're unworthy; we're unworthy.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
105 Posts
Christine,

A while back there was a thread on here that was about 5 pages on getting a dog to the line in Junior.

This may not be the best place to ask questions about how to judge!

Find a judge you respect and ask them.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,015 Posts
There are more then a few Field Trial judges that haven't hunted. In recent years there seems to be an influx of some who have never hunted at the Hunt Test level of judging. (I can only speak for AKC)

I have judged, trained and socialized with some of these judges. For the most part most if not all of the better judges, who train thier own dogs and/or seek help from a professional trainer at least for a portion of thier dogs training show a high degree of the "art of judging dogs" . Some have followed in a spouses, parent or friends footsteps while they are hunting. If you train enough, sometimes years, have thrown your share of birds, have fired tons of popper shells from a shotgun, have been out in all kinds of weather, have handled birds not quite deceased and dispatched those birds in a humane way! Have set up tests in training showing a knowledge of wind, terain, bird placement, AND have set up the tests in training, then WHY on Earth should you not be allowed to judge!?

Conversely I have trained, hunted, judged with terrible people, when confronted with even the basic knowledge of the art of judging dogs, are a complete failure! They were for the most part hunters and former hunters. Thier tests lack soundness, are shallow, technocrat types who beat you up with the rulebook and play King or Queen for the day!

Everyone, including myself are complaining about the state of judging, perhaps we need to get some involved maybe who "don't have extensive experience hunting" but, have extensive experience training thier own dogs, setting up tests, shooting shotguns/blank pistols, working in all types of weather , all that resemble hunting. If you have fired a diversion shot with a 12 gauge shotgun while blowing a duck call, it seems to me not much different then a days hunt when some hunters "miss thier birds" ?

Earl
 

·
Administrator
Joined
·
3,871 Posts
ChrisRobt said:
When I say I'm new to this game, I mean at the master level; I have been running in hunt tests since they began, at first with show Goldens and now with IWS. ...
Sorry, I was just going on your comment that you were new to the game.

Good luck in the future with your IWS & your judging!

Vicky
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
6,217 Posts
Christine; My thanks to you & all others who are willing to be judges. It is kind of a thankless task & the pay aint real good. The sport is better for you
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
5,356 Posts
Never have I been snubbed at a Nahra or HRC event, and I've never had anyone at the akc event introduce themselves or be helpful in any way. Take it like you want, but this is just my personal experience and the reason that I will never attend an akc event again.
There are two sides to every story. Your post was a wholesale indictment about a venue that YOU have an issue with. Seems like a PM might have been more appropriate under the circumstances.

I will read the regs as often as needed but would also like to be able to ask questions about nuances here where there are so many experienced judges and handlers...
The regs/guidelines can only offer so much. There's no substitute for personal experience. There's a TON of it here.

Ask away! :D

kg
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
8,908 Posts
Christine, I hope my PM reply to you regarding this weekend, my advice in PM's to you in the past and my example in the 2 master tests you've run under me demonstrate that I'm very open to helping new judges and handlers in any way i can. I like to joke and have fun and mess around, but don't confuse that with also being willing to share what knowledge or experience I can. Don't be discouraged to ask questions. My recommendation is to do it in a way that doesn't cast aspirations on other handlers. Retriever sports are a small community and phrasing questions in the manner you did hurt other people. Dennis and I worked with Bruin today, I talked him off the ledge and Bruin didn't seem to care one way or another that you felt distracted by his girly whine. Since Dennis is a client and a friend I was quick to come to his defense. There was nothing wrong with the question in general. Keep in mind ******** are direct, no sense beating around the bush...

/Paul
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
2,869 Posts
Hey Zack if you read the post I dont believe I said anything about me judging did I?I havent been in the game long enough in my mind to be a judge,hince thats why I said what I said about judges being in the game a while before they judge.Hey Zack shouldnt you be out throwing for Rody or something?
 
1 - 20 of 26 Posts
Top