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I wondered if you considered someone a BYB or puppy mill if they have several different breeds and have 10-15 litters a year but they breed to top quality studs and they get titles on there females( JH SH or MH titles)?Just curious how other view this.
 

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It seems to me that a quality breeder only breeds animals that have received appropriate genetic/health screenings and come from lines that will improve the overall quality of the breed. They make sure the pups receive appropriate veterinary care and are properly socialized. They screen prospective buyers to make sure that pups will end up in homes that are able to care for them and work to educate buyers on how to care for the pups. Females are not overbred and have a good life before, during, and after their breeding stages of life. Finally, a good breeder accepts responsibility for following up on pups that have been sold and helping buyers deal with problems that may arise. If a breeder meets all of these criteria, I would not call them a puppy mill regardless of the volume of pups bred and sold.
 

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I just want to say I agree with Jeff about what a responsible breeder is regardless of volume, but I would have to question the time issue. I mean, if they have 10-15 litters a year (whelping one litter is time consuming enough) with several different breeds (which I would assume they would then have quite a few dogs to feed and care for every day, not to mention how knowledgable are they of each breed- and I mean beyond titles and whelping?) and are still going out to get titles on their females (do they train and show/trial/test or send to a pro?), do they really have time for all of that? I know I don't, but if they do more power to them. I'm just curious how they make the time...
 

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I know of one similar to what you describe. They breed CBR, NSDT. Labs, goldens, and maybe one or two others. I am not sure how they have the time to keep all of these happy, but they do put out some fair to good HT dogs. One, according to their web site, is like the top HT NSDT or maybe it is a Boykin I cannot remember. I don't think I would view them as a puppy mill because they get all health clearances and seem to do pretty good breedings. If you own 5 breeds and have 15 litters a year I am not sure that would qualify as too many, not that an arbitrary number is the determining factor in a puppy mill.
 

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I lean towards moorelabs response. The question is rather vague when it says they put titles on the bitches{JH SH or MH} in the respect that there is a big difference between a JH & MH. To put a MH on a dog takes a good dog & a training commitment; the same cannot be said of a JH.
I really don't think a breeder can do justice to 15 litters a year unless they hired a lot of help.
 

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Discussion Starter · #7 ·
I mean that all the females have atleast JH and some up to MH.They have labs,goldens and pointers I believe.Is a puppy mill described as how many litters yo have or how well you do or dont take care of them?
 

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Here is my opinion, some of you have seen it before --

By definition, a “puppy mill” is a factory in the business of producing puppies for sale for a profit, in order to sustain the business, its employees and its owners. Are there clean puppy mills? Yes! Are there puppy mills where the dogs are well taken care of? Yes! Are there puppy mills where consideration is put into the best matings? Yes! But they are still "puppy mills."

Puppy mills are frowned upon because when profit supersedes all else, all else begins to suffer, specifically the welfare of the breed as well as the individuals. A larger profit is what leads some unscrupulous puppy mills to use smaller cages, breed indiscriminately, and not provide good care.

Therefore, in general, I oppose puppy mills, while at the same time I am more tolerant of this or that individual puppy mill.

Generalizations are only true "in general," and are never fair when applied to specific individuals.
 

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Does the breeder help/or rehome any pup produced if needed? With all of the concerns about rescue, shelters and spay and neuter laws, every breeder should be concerned about the permanent placement of all of the pups produced. I am not sure when money is the motivator, that continued assistance in placement is even considered a responsibility by those breeders.

Some large volumn breeders place the bitches in homes and the pups are whelped in those homes. The breeder does the business end of it - managing the stud arrangements, advertising, and selling pups.
 

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moorelabs said:
Puppy Mill. Period.
LM
Careful....because when legislative bodies start thinking like this, pretty soon anyone breeding 5 litters is a "puppy mill" and under legislative control. Then it's three litters. Then it's one litter. Then it's no more purebred dogs at all. See the new California mandatory spay/neuter bill as evidence.
I'm against mass production of puppies for profit just as much as the next person but there is danger in labelling someone "good" or "bad" based on numbers alone.
--Anney
 

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moorelabs said:
Puppy Mill. Period.
LM
Wow, do I disagree with this!!!!
 

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fowl hunter said:
I wondered if you considered someone a BYB or puppy mill if they have several different breeds and have 10-15 litters a year but they breed to top quality studs and they get titles on there females( JH SH or MH titles)?Just curious how other view this.

Do they do health certifications as well? If they do them, then I have no problems with them at all. If they don't, then I do.


Volume is an indicator of a puppy mill, but not a determining factor.
 

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AmiableLabs said:
Here is my opinion, some of you have seen it before --

By definition, a “puppy mill” is a factory in the business of producing puppies for sale for a profit, in order to sustain the business, its employees and its owners.
I disagree with this definition completely. The same logic could be used with equal justification to discredit all operations -- trainers, boarding kennels, veterinarians, people selling dog food or pet supplies, etc. -- where those involved have chosen to make their work with our beloved animals the foundation for their careers.

It is inevitable that a professional will have his or her judgments affected, to at least some extent, by the economics of his or her profession. Some might respond to this profit potential by acting like thieves, but that doesn't make everyone else in the same business a thief.

In the business of breeding puppies, a puppy mill operator is effectively a thief seeking to extract exorbitant profits by investing too little money, talent and time in breeding a litter with negative consequences for both the dogs and the purchasers. The well-meaning but ignorant backyard breeder is not quite as repulsive, but may end up doing similar damage.

That leaves us with a mix of low volume "hobby" breeders for whom economics remains important even if only to avoid losses, and higher volume breeders for whom economics are even more important because the revenues from puppy sales are an important element of the person's business and personal income.

Some of the best names in breeding probably fall into this second category. We should be encouraging these businesses to operate better rather than painting them with the puppy mill brush. We may find that the standards of operation for the best commercial breeders raise the bar for what we expect from hobby breeders as well.
 
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