[john fallon]

There were 12 dogs that completed the Water Marks, the tests had yielded all the answers necessary save the 3rd and 4th placements.

The candidates for those placements had carbon copy marks, albeit not as good as the higher placing dogs.
A dissection of their blinds showed them to be comparable —except that one dog zigged once or twice when told to zag—and better in fact than the first and second place dogs.

Do you run another series?

If your answer is NO, replace 3rd and 4th place with 1st and 2nd place in the question and then tell us your —new— answer . . . and why.

john

 

[Paul Rainbolt]

Line manners, style, that zig in the wrong direction. Has to be a way to separate them or i would not have a problem with another series.

 

[Granddaddy]

Another series may provide the separation desired or it could complicate a clear placement for 1-2. I'd try to find separation in the work already done. It' s just the way it happens occasionally. You don't always get the separation you want & the judges have to make the decisions.

If this situation exists for placements 1-2, but only assuming the judges cannot come to agreeement to place a winner, then I'd run another series but the same complications could result. You've run 4 series, it is not a given you will get the answers you want with a 5th, it could make a tough decision more difficult.

 

[Guest]

there are many things to consider which i generally dont consider until placement time. i make lots of notes throughout the judging adventure. y when it comes time for placements and i need a little help to seperate, i have more info than just a drawing. ie... entusiasm, obedience and control, response, generally speaking the minor faults list.
if you cant come up with a winner, another series may be necessary.
after that you should decify your placements from what you have.

 

[Beverly Burns]

Having been a part of the "old fifth series trick", what it tells me that there was big problem with test 1-2-3, or 4 or the favorites had a bad time with one of them. Sometimes scrapping a test saves time in the end but you've got to do it before the last dog has run. :!:

 

[Shayne Mehringer]

What time is it and do i have a flight to catch?


kidding

SM

 

[hhlabradors]

Do you have the knowledge and the resources to set up one more series that will give you the clear answers you seek?

 

[Lonny Taylor]

You only run another series if you do not have a winner, but not to sort out lower placements. If you run another series you might lose your winner. If you take lots of notes during the running of each dog you will find a way to sort the lower placements.

LT

 

[Jerry]

My feeling is that if the dogs have been tested equally on land & water and both Judges agree there is a winner, then the Stake is over.

The other placements might be considered to be just "card shuffling" so to speak.

In the second scenario, doesn't sound like there is a Winner and another series may be necessary.

Jerry

 

[john fallon]

My feeling is that if the dogs have been tested equally on land & water and both Judges agree there is a winner, then the Stake is over.

The other placements might be considered to be just "card shuffling" so to speak.

In the second scenario, doesn't sound like there is a Winner and another series may be necessary.

Jerry

There are a lot of good reasons why the correct Dog should get the right number of points—not the least of which is that it's the proper thing to do.

Give me ONE good reason where the contrary is true.

Half a point shy of being the youngest dog/first Tollar/(you fill in the blank) to ever qualify for the Nationals regards

john

 

[Jerry]

Not arguing that point at all John. ALL the placements mean something to the owners and perhaps to the future of the dogs.

I do think it's foolish, if not downright dumb, to subject the "Winner" to another series in order to properly place 3rd & 4th.

Quite often the placements are very close and a little nit-pickin is necessary. Not desired, but necessary.

Jerry

 

[Patrick Johndrow]

My feeling is that if the dogs have been tested equally on land & water and both Judges agree there is a winner, then the Stake is over.

The other placements might be considered to be just "card shuffling" so to speak.

In the second scenario, doesn't sound like there is a Winner and another series may be necessary.

Jerry

I agree Jerry...other than the winner the points and the placement are immaterial...flip a quarter.

agree on the 2nd part as well.

 

[john fallon]

When you judge you have given your word —by way of signing the affirmation sheet—To then say that other than First place,all others are inconsequential :roll:

Supplement To The Standard Procedure

. . .The objectives of this supplement are twofold: First,
greater uniformity in the conduct of retriever trials; and
second, greater uniformity in the judging of performances
by retrievers at those field trials. . ..

. . .(13) Before arriving at their final placings in any
stake, the Judges should make direct comparisons, series
for series, between all of their dogs under consideration
for those places. Such comparisons permit each Judge
to be certain that the dog placed first has given a relatively
better performance throughout the stake than
the second-place dog, etc. The fourth-place dog should
be compared directly with all that are unplaced, and on
a similar basis, Judges should be reminded of Section
41 in the “STANDARD’’ wherein they are encouraged
to make a “Judge’s Award of Merit’’ to those dogs
which have completed all series, and which show evi-dence
of being well trained and thoroughly qualified
retrievers. However, in stakes where a Judge’s Award
of Merit qualifies a dog for a Limited or Special All-Age
stake and, thus, makes him a starter eligible to enter
future stakes carrying championship points, such
awards should not be given unless the dog’s work mer-its
this recognition.

Right down to the JAMBS regards,
john

 

[Jerry]

And your point is?

As it relates to your original question please.

The other placements and Jams are NOT inconsequential. But in truth, I don't think any two Judges are gonna sit there and argue at length over a RJam v. Jam. Probably not gonna argue too long over 3rd & 4th either.

Jerry

 

[john fallon]

And your point is?

As it relates to your original question please.

The other placements and Jams are NOT inconsequential. But in truth, I don't think any two Judges are gonna sit there and argue at length over a RJam v. Jam. Probably not gonna argue too long over 3rd & 4th either.

Jerry

. . . and thats a good thing?

john

 

[Patrick Johndrow]

And your point is?

As it relates to your original question please.

The other placements and Jams are NOT inconsequential. But in truth, I don't think any two Judges are gonna sit there and argue at length over a RJam v. Jam. Probably not gonna argue too long over 3rd & 4th either.

Jerry

. . . and thats a good thing?

john

....it's a bad thing?

 

[john fallon]

And your point is?

As it relates to your original question please.

The other placements and Jams are NOT inconsequential. But in truth, I don't think any two Judges are gonna sit there and argue at length over a RJam v. Jam. Probably not gonna argue too long over 3rd & 4th either.

Jerry

. . . and thats a good thing?

john

....it's a bad thing?

Not only is it a bad thing. . . unless you don't understand English in it's written form. . . you, not you Patrick—the figurative you of course— have sworn to do otherwise

I think this subject is a little to sticky for some to weigh in on :wink:
john

 

[Jerry]

You can't answer a question with a question.

What was your point?

Jerry

 

[Bubba]

I think this subject is a little to sticky for some to weigh in on

I'm thinking that most folks just don't feel like spending time arguing with a peckerhead.

Just a guess regards

Bubba

 

[Patrick Johndrow]

I think this subject is a little to sticky for some to weigh in on

I'm thinking that most folks just don't feel like spending time arguing with a peckerhead.

Just a guess regards

Bubba

Bubba....taking your advice :wink: