RetrieverTraining.Net - the RTF banner

Do you support the concept of apprentice judging for Field Trials?

  • Yes, I support the concept

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • No, I do not support the concept

    Votes: 0 0.0%
1 - 20 of 29 Posts

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,035 Posts
Discussion Starter · #1 ·
Borrowing from Randy Bohn's thread "How do we become better judges" I would like to know if RTF members would support the concept of apprentice judging for Field Trials? (along the lines of but not identical to the AKC Hunt Test's program)

For those not familiar with the HT program, I'm suggesting
something along the following lines: X wants to judge. X takes and passes the FT Rules Test. X is then assigned to "shadow" a pair of experienced judges as they look at the property, decide on their test and sits with the judges with his own book and "judges". X listens to the judges deliberations and compares with his own evaluation. X does not interfere and obviously his evaluations don't count. At this point don't worry too much about the details, I am just curious if you feel the concept has merit.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,916 Posts
I think it has Merit, but I also think that experience running in the Stakes under various Judges works better,

Your suggestion only relates to watching two Judges, who may or may not know what they are doing.

The best way to learn is to Judge with Nelson Sills, Keith Griffith, Ed Aycock, Eleanor Trew, etc. They know dogs, terrain, and dog work.

Jerry
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,035 Posts
Discussion Starter · #3 ·
Jerry, When I said "experienced" judges I was thinking "best in the area" I also think that if you could do it more than once the better off you'll be. I think that your clubs or your own trialing experiences will give you some idea as to who you think is appropriate to observe.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
43 Posts
The best way to learn to judge is learn to train your dog and understand why things happen. Judging with good judges usually just means your along for the ride for a well done trial.
 
G

·
MF said:
The best way to learn to judge is learn to train your dog and understand why things happen. Judging with good judges usually just means your along for the ride for a well done trial.
Hey MF,

What can you tell us about good bird placement? Incorporating factors such as terrain/weather/time limitations? How do you judge a dog that picks up marks with a quick hook behind a retired gun vs a hunt in front of that same gun?

Thanks! Oh and I ask because I'm assuming you are an experienced Field Trial judge?! I'm not sure folks just learning to understand why things happen will know all this judging stuff so it's nice you're here to help out!
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
3,062 Posts
Running/training a dog is NECESSARY experience, however, it does not give you any help with time management, mechanics, gallery placement, officiating, etc etc. These things are a crucial part of judging , but not part of the skills necessary to trian or handle.

Anyone over 21 who is in good standing with AKC and breathing can do the open book test and judge field trials. One needs to do far more to get a ticket to judge hunt tests.
 

·
Administrator
Joined
·
3,871 Posts
Bob Gutermuth said:
Anyone over 21 who is in good standing with AKC and breathing can do the open book test and judge field trials. One needs to do far more to get a ticket to judge hunt tests.
But they have to have already been asked to judge a FT by a club before they can even get the open book test!

Vicky
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,035 Posts
Discussion Starter · #10 ·
Ya, that bothers me. It seems like you ought to be prepared rather than do a last minute cram to pass the test. (though I strongly recommend a last minute review of the rules to refresh the rusty memory)
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
7,757 Posts
dogcommand said:
Ya, that bothers me. It seems like you ought to be prepared rather than do a last minute cram to pass the test. (though I strongly recommend a last minute review of the rules to refresh the rusty memory)
It's an open book test so you don't have to "cram". I personally think the HT judges should have to take an open book test before they apprentice.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,512 Posts
What if you apprentice with a judge that has a certain amount of points? In some venues the requirement to apprentice with a judge of a specific level is important.

Is there any requirement to have qualified a dog at a certain level before you can judge a FT?

Margo
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
9,826 Posts
Margo Ellis said:
Is there any requirement to have qualified a dog at a certain level before you can judge a FT?
regretably not, a requirement that one has successfully competed at the level they are judging has long been discussed but never implemented
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,035 Posts
Discussion Starter · #14 ·
Nancy, I guess perhaps cram wasn't the right word. My thought was that if you got a relatively last minute judging assignment you might have to rush to do the test in order to judge. I'd rather do the test, apprentice and then be ready if asked to judge.....knowing that I should re-read the rules and any updates before actually going to work.

If memory serves me, I believe you have to have run or titled a dog at the level you are apprenticing and or judging in HT. I've been away from it for a bit so someone may have to clarify.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,035 Posts
Discussion Starter · #15 ·
Ed Regarding "qualifying a dog at the level you are to judge" How would you define that when you get to the Am and Open level. Title, placement, jam,??? Completed X many opens or ams? Just wondering cause it seems if Title were a requirement your pool of judges would shrink to minute numbers at the major stakes. I definitely think that there should be an experience factor but am curious what was being tossed around.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
9,826 Posts
dogcommand said:
Ed Regarding "qualifying a dog at the level you are to judge" How would you define that when you get to the Am and Open level. Title, placement, jam,??? Completed X many opens or ams? Just wondering cause it seems if Title were a requirement your pool of judges would shrink to minute numbers at the major stakes. I definitely think that there should be an experience factor but am curious what was being tossed around.
a requirement that for someone to judge all-age stakes they must have completed an all-age stake with at least a JAM, a reasonable requirement in my opinion.

there are too many pointed judges who have never seen the last series of an open or amateur unless they were judging it

I truly believe that we have a judging crisis in field trials and I can think of two possible solutions, allowing professional trainers to judge (which with appropriate controls I would favor) and professional judges (an interesting concept).

I doubt that apprentice judgeship would accomplish very much and it would be a burden for the judges. But, that being said, I would not oppose an apprentice program because it might not help but it probably wouldn't hurt 8)
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
43 Posts
Melanie,

sorry I have been slow in responding to your response, busy training my dogs and learning bird placement, try it sometime.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,963 Posts
Vicky Trainor said:
Bob Gutermuth said:
Anyone over 21 who is in good standing with AKC and breathing can do the open book test and judge field trials. One needs to do far more to get a ticket to judge hunt tests.
But they have to have already been asked to judge a FT by a club before they can even get the open book test!

Vicky
AKC can not or will not produce a dated written "policy" that states a FT judge must be 21( I have made multiple request over the last 3 years). The AKC HT rule has this policy documented.
IMHO the apprentice program has not improved the HT judging so why should it improve FT judging?

Training and running your own dogs makes someone a better judge. This type of person is designing test and evaluating dogs EVERYDAY.
The trainer/handler knows how to design: factors, tendencies etc much more so the judge that owns a successful pro trained dog and is coached by that pro each weekend.

It maybe helpful for the AKC to redesign their written test and have a renewal test that presents various situations to evaluate judges.

Tim
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,035 Posts
Discussion Starter · #19 ·
Tim, Sounds good, but IMHO unless you are a heck of a good trainer, training and running your own dogs does not in an of itself make you capable of judging. I know tons of people who go out an train on crap every day. Would I want them as judges heck no! Too many see something at a trial/test and then go out and practice it. Doesn't mean that they know factors or would know how to set up a good test..
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,035 Posts
Discussion Starter · #20 ·
Ed, I'm sorry that you feel that way, I for one would love to apprentice with someone like you. I don't think that it has to be a burden. I know that you like to "teach" but I think that for someone like me there is a lot go be gained by listening to and watching good judges at work. At setup you could think out loud "with this mark a dog would do X, if we moved it over to there Y would happen." Judges all do this in their minds while setting up, and I think a novice could benefit from the process without interfering. Same with the evaluation process, let the apprentice listen to you while looking at his own book and see what he thought.....if time and numbers permit ask what the apprentice thought about a given dog .

I think the judges should not be trying to mould the apprentice into clones of themselves but rather, showing them the process and how some experienced judges view it.
 
1 - 20 of 29 Posts
Top