RetrieverTraining.Net - the RTF banner
1 - 20 of 40 Posts

·
Registered
Joined
·
2,319 Posts
Discussion Starter · #1 ·
I have worried while pondering regarding adding my request on the RTF for many a year.

Over the last 5 years, I have gained pedigrees regarding affected dogs with this syndrome from veterinary surgeons, breeders, trainers and owners.

The pedigrees do not correlate well regarding mode of inheritance, not only because of definitive diagnosis.

I ask in the hope that if you have had a labrador (preferably know of at least two affecteds from the same litter or repeat matings), could kindly take the time and Email me the pedigrees to add to my data base.

If you are a breeder and keep in touch with all owners who have not had any affecteds I would also appreciate their pedigrees if from well known lines.

Confidentially is assured if requested.

Thankyou.

[email protected]
 

·
Banned
Joined
·
5,856 Posts
Your playing with fire Julie..... :evil: There's no test. Diagnosis is through a process of elimination. That can be very subjective....

All you'll have is a collection of opinions which can be anything but relevant.

Angie
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
2,319 Posts
Discussion Starter · #3 ·
Angie B said:
Your playing with fire Julie..... :evil: There's no test. Diagnosis is through a process of elimination. That can be very subjective....

All you'll have is a collection of opinions which can be anything but relevant.

Angie
I appreciate your reply Angie and understand. At many a stage, I had pedigrees from one end of the house to the other trying to make sense of the MOI.

I did the same with CNM, which was easier (before the DNA test becoming available) not only as the youngsters were diagnosed early.

I wish to add, I am very sincere in my request.
 

·
Banned
Joined
·
5,856 Posts
I appreciate your request, but I wouldn't touch it with a 10 ft pole.

Angie
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
6,636 Posts
This study is already being done on a controlled basis. Information on affected dogs is asked to be submitted to:

Dr. Susan Taylor, DVM
Diplomate, ACVIM (Internal Medicine)
Department of Small Animal Clinical Sciences, Western College of Veterinary Medicine
University of Saskatchewan, Saskatoon, Saskatchewan, Canada, S7N5B4
Phone: 306-966-7093
FAX: 306-966-7174
e-mail: [email protected]

I'm not sure if anyone has an updated status of the work.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
2,319 Posts
Discussion Starter · #6 ·
Angie B said:
I appreciate your request, but I wouldn't touch it with a 10 ft pole.

Angie
Thankfully others have not had the same view.

Frankly I find it bizarre, that there are many secrets regarding genetic health, particularly in smaller breeding kennels, after all there are very few "perfect dogs".
 

·
Banned
Joined
·
5,856 Posts
Because Julie much of which you'll be getting is gossip, opinion and rumor. EIC has the same symptoms as a 100 other ailments.

But hey,,,, whatever makes your socks go up and down.

I'm no breeder so I have no personal stake in your collection of data.

Angie
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
236 Posts
Some can be rumors, opinion etc......no doubt about it. But there are also some who want to keep their head in the sand.

Praying for a test for EIC soon!!
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,317 Posts
Aussi,

I would help if I could. I have never even seen a case except on video. I commend your effort. Keep it up.

tt
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
2,319 Posts
Discussion Starter · #10 ·
I think it prudent at this time, as a few are aware, I imported an US field bred labrador. The reason for my question has no relationship to Yank. He is a lovely dog to train and I have high hopes for a great trialling career. I am also very happy with his hip and elbows grades/scores, CNM and PRA clearances and his eye testing. He has shown no signs of EIC.

I also wish to add, I appreciate greatly the pedigrees Emailed to me, so far and those of support. Thankyou.

May there be many more.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
167 Posts
The pedigrees do not correlate well regarding mode of inheritance, not only because of definitive diagnosis.
Are you saying that within the pedigrees that you've collected they're so many different dogs represented it's impossible to determine a pattern of inheritance? You're hope is by collecting more pedigree's, specifically pedigrees of sire/dam with 2 or more affected litter mates of supposed dogs with EIC, it might make it more clear; rather than add to the confusion?

If so, you're limited study would appear to parallel the in depth study being conducted at the University of Minnesota in conjunction and continuation of the University of Saskatchewan study.

Which someday will conclude that EIC is a genetic anomaly with no definitive evidence that it is an inherited genetic condition.
Lyle
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,317 Posts
Aussie,

The reason I commended you a few posts ago is this, population studies are down the rung as far as accurate information derived, but they do often find a common link or direction that the more expensive blind/control studies and mechanical studies take and run with. That is why you with your pedigrees may see something that is missed in other types of studies. If so, then you have done a service to the retriever community. If not, then you have spent your time looking at great pedigrees, and you probably enjoyed it. I don't see the down side. Unless of course, you come up with a drastically wrong conclusion that throws the Labrador world into a hysterical panic.

tt
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
236 Posts
Which someday will conclude that EIC is a genetic anomaly with no definitive evidence that it is an inherited genetic condition.
Lyle
What makes you think this Lyle? Just curious......because research from what I've heard/read is suggesting there's a genetic link. The mode of inheritance is yet to be 'pinned down'.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
167 Posts
research from what I've heard/read is suggesting there's a genetic link. The mode of inheritance is yet to be 'pinned down'.
There is definitely a discovered genetic link but that doesn’t mean that it is inherited. Just one example is Down Syndrome is genetic but it is not an inherited condition, it is a genetic anomaly. I think you have to read between the lines when it comes to the study collecting pedigrees. The Taylor study identified a gene that has characteristics of a gene that is typically inherited. Further study to determine if it is indeed an inherited gene by discovering the mode of inheritance have been inconclusive. In an effort to find direction the study decided to collect pedigrees. A process that is slow, cumbersome, archaic, and unscientific hoping that it would give a direction to a scientific conclusion. The examination of pedigrees contains the very basic flaw. There is no conclusive test for EIC consequently the pedigrees may or may not be from dogs with EIC, giving false data to work with. Putting that aside what has been found is that the stud pool is quite small, consequently the same studs show up numerous times in each pedigree and in the study as a whole. Meaning both those that have EIC and those that don't, have the same family tree. So the collection of pedigrees in an attempt to discovering a common denominator is moot. Unless.....

If you really want to help the study move forward what they need are pedigrees from dogs suspected of EIC that were from the same litter or have the same sire and dam. When they have a collection of such pedigrees they would be a giant step closer than they are. I don’t believe that they’re seeing those types of pedigrees.

paul young wrote:
there's a LOT of "anomalies", Lyle........
That would be hard to determine unless we knew how many pups were born with EIC each year to compare to the entire birthed population.

Lyle
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
236 Posts
I guess information read/given can be interperted in different ways. This is part of an email I received from Dr. Taylor in January.


All evidence currently points to this being an autosomal recessive
trait with
incomplete expression. Until we actually find the gene and can
determine
whether all clinically affected dogs are homzygous for the abnormality
we
cannot entirely exclude an autosomal dominant inheritance with variable
penetrance.

The laboratory doing the genetic testing has demonstrated very strong
linkage of
EIC to a particular site (locus) on an individual chromosome. They are
in the
process of developing a more precise map of the region to attempt to
more
precisely identify the EIC gene and to define adjacent marker genes -
one of
these objectives must be met before we can develop a test for EIC.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,153 Posts
Just one example is Down Syndrome is genetic but it is not an inherited condition, it is a genetic anomaly.
Off-topic, mostly, but an interesting thing I learned recently--very rarely, a person will have a genetic anomoly him/herself which will cause ALL progeny to have Downs--this is not the most typical way a child is born with Downs, but it is one of a few ways it occurs. I don't know if you would call this inherited or not, but I guess you could say that the genetic anomoly occurs one step earlier.

There are so many possibilities here besides simple recessive. I'm even remembering something about "jumping genes" in corn from some class long ago when I understood such things... genetics is so wonderfully complex.

In the meantime, if someone is sincerely curious about the breed or wants to avoid encountering EIC as thoroughly as is in their power and wants to pore over pedigrees and try to find connections, well, that's more proactive than just throwing up one's hands and saying "you can't avoid every problem"--the proactive approach would be more my style, Julie, so more power to you. (But then again, I'm neurotic--hope you aren't. :lol: )

Hope someone figures it out before I can afford the bigger vehicle for the next dog...
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
167 Posts
And this statement has been the "hat hanger" of the EIC study for many years now. They're no closer today.

All evidence currently points to this being an autosomal recessive trait with incomplete expression. Until we actually find the gene and can determine whether all clinically affected dogs are homzygous for the abnormality we cannot entirely exclude an autosomal dominant inheritance with variable penetrance.
That says exactly what said: The Taylor study identified a gene that has characteristics of a gene that is typically inherited. Further study to determine if it is indeed an inherited gene by discovering the mode of inheritance have been inconclusive

The laboratory doing the genetic testing has demonstrated very strong linkage of EIC to a particular site (locus) on an individual chromosome. They are in the process of developing a more precise map of the region to attempt to more precisely identify the EIC gene and to define adjacent marker genes -one of these objectives must be met before we can develop a test for EIC.
Which also means: There is definitely a discovered genetic link but that doesn’t mean that it is inherited. Just one example is Down Syndrome is genetic but it is not an inherited condition, it is a genetic anomaly.

I don't know if EIC is inherited or not and neither does Dr. Taylor's study. Let's just wait a find out before we slander specific sires.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
5,475 Posts
so i guess you're proposing that this is a mutation new to the canine population?

this would be even more alarming to me, as it would suggest the trigger is environmental, which would put ALL CANINES at risk.-paul
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
167 Posts
a person will have a genetic anomoly him/herself which will cause ALL progeny to have Downs-
A person doesn't cause Down Syndrome it is an abnormal occurrence. When sperm and egg get together a 21st chromosome gets added; 1 more than is needed. No explanation and not predictable; a genetic anomaly.
 
1 - 20 of 40 Posts
Top