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According to the rule book:
29. In marking tests, a dog whose handler gives him a line in the direction of the fall, provided that such lining is accomplished briskly and precisely, should not by reason of such lining be outscored by a dog not so lined. However, conspicuously intensive lining is undesirable and should be penalized.

Is the intent of this rule to penalize extensive (taking too much time) lining?

How do you decide when lining should be penalized?

How severe typically is the penalty?
 

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It seems no judges want to touch this subject.

Perhaps it would be easier to discuss with some video examples (made intentionally, not of dogs at actual events).
 

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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hcULmHsNl5w


Not a Field trial,, but HT rulebook states similar rule..

Always game to post a video! :) I expected to get dropped for this.. excessive lining.. ( I didn't).. She wouldn't settle down,, and was really distracted by the geese calling, and was looking at two old falls. . Master Test.. Water blind..

This blind immediately after a triple mark. Blind was up the middle ,past the short bird (Hide on shore), and in between the other two marks . 1 mark was left of the blind, on face of dike, the other was on land, to right of blind.. back in that corner..

She picks up the blind as she comes down the hill in the cattails.. End of vid..
 

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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hcULmHsNl5w


Not a Field trial,, but HT rulebook states similar rule..

Always game to post a video! :) I expected to get dropped for this.. excessive lining.. ( I didn't).. She wouldn't settle down,, and was really distracted by the geese calling, and was looking at two old falls. . Master Test.. Water blind..

This blind immediately after a triple mark. Blind was up the middle ,past the short bird (Hide on shore), and in between the other two marks . 1 mark was left of the blind, on face of dike, the other was on land, to right of blind.. back in that corner..

She picks up the blind as she comes down the hill in the cattails.. End of vid..
Rule isn't intended for blinds. Only for marks.
 

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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hcULmHsNl5w


Not a Field trial,, but HT rulebook states similar rule..

Always game to post a video! :) I expected to get dropped for this.. excessive lining.. ( I didn't).. She wouldn't settle down,, and was really distracted by the geese calling, and was looking at two old falls. . Master Test.. Water blind..

This blind immediately after a triple mark. Blind was up the middle ,past the short bird (Hide on shore), and in between the other two marks . 1 mark was left of the blind, on face of dike, the other was on land, to right of blind.. back in that corner..

She picks up the blind as she comes down the hill in the cattails.. End of vid..
If I saw this on a mark I would note "NFC" No...… Clue.
 

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conspicuously intensive lining is undesirable and should be penalized.

Is the intent of this rule to penalize extensive (taking too much time) lining?

How do you decide when lining should be penalized?

How severe typically is the penalty?
It is noted in my book but it is a note that takes care of itself once the dog is sent. Most dogs that require it do not make it to the next series.
With the possible exception of someone trying to secondary select the need for "conspicuously intensive lining"( which is subjective) generally results in a poor marking performance for the dog.( a handle, pick-up or huge SOB hunt) unless they get lucky.

Tim
 

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Dave

A few thoughts:

1) I think the intent is clear and your question a rhetorical one.

2) I also think that Rulebook was written in a different era. The lines to the marks have gotten so tight - and the Areas of Fall so close - that it is hard to penalize the handlers from working to make certain that the dog is going to mark B and not returning to mark A.

3) I mostly agree with Tim's comments above.

4) That being said, at some point (and I can't specify the amount of time), I would probably say "You need to send your dog before I decide that you are conspicuously lining your dog."

In the same, vein if I think you are taking too much time to show your dog the marks before calling for the birds, I will say "I'm going to be calling for the birds soon."

Ted
 

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Please don’t jump on me Ted and Tim but not all birds are thrown the same. Not all light is the same. So this effects what the dog sees and the time taken to line dog.
 

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Please don’t jump on me Ted and Tim but not all birds are thrown the same. Not all light is the same. So this effects what the dog sees and the time taken to line dog.

I understand. But, at some point, I may deem it excessive and warn you that I am about to intervene in a fashion you may not want.
 

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Thank you very much for the advice, the truth is that there are some things that I was completely unaware of. I have been a bull terrier miniature for a very short time and the truth is that I would like to know all these things. Thank you very much and greetings.
 

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Can't say all I know is seems to me when I have been at FT that every handler took significant time showing dogs all the white coats before the marks are called for, but maybe that's not considered lining? Maybe lining is only done after the birds are down? They tend to take time at that too but not as much time as is taken as prior to birds being thrown. Was quite shocking when I ran my first FT coming from HT wish I had know you weren't just supposed to walk up and call for the birds; the dog might've seen more than one ;)
 

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Showing the dog the birds is different than lining the dogs. By definition, there is no lining of the dogs before the birds are thrown. After the birds are thrown, and you prepare to launch your dog to retrieve, the process of trying to precisely align the dog before sending it is called lining. The Rule Book calls for sanctions of "conspicuously intensive lining."
 

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While conspicuously intensive lining is undesirable and subject to some penalty, a dog that responds well to the handler’s cues to help him select and remember the location of the bird to retrieve is impressive and will be noted by me as part of good style.
 

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I don't see how this is a component of style, and can find nothing in the book to support your position on this.
 

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I don't see how this is a component of style, and can find nothing in the book to support your position on this.
I would put it under “alert and obedient”. And “Style is apparent in every movement of the dog and throughout his entire performance.”

It could also be classified under “ control and response to direction

A dog that works well with his handler is part of an overall pleasing performance. It’s a small detail, but potentially worth noting.
 

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Can't say all I know is seems to me when I have been at FT that every handler took significant time showing dogs all the white coats before the marks are called for, but maybe that's not considered lining? Maybe lining is only done after the birds are down? They tend to take time at that too but not as much time as is taken as prior to birds being thrown. Was quite shocking when I ran my first FT coming from HT wish I had know you weren't just supposed to walk up and call for the birds; the dog might've seen more than one ;)
I am all for giving handlers sufficient time for the dog to identify the guns but intolerant of handlers taking 30-45 seconds for a ten second job. Like Ted, when I have seen enough and the handler has not called for the birds I tell them “I’m going to call for the birds”.
 

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You're never going to get new people in this game with rules like this. I spend $100+ to enter and you can't give me 30 seconds to do my best?
 

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It's competition. Success in competition requires a certain level of competence on the part of the dog and the handler. 45 seconds is lifetime on the mat.
 

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Fine. Then the rules should state the handler has 15 seconds to send. Why should the rules be ambiguous? Especially since it's "competition".
 
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