[Kenneth Niles Bora]

You are the judge, it is Friday afternoon. This is your water site. You are setting up a NAHRA intermediate or AKC senior water series. You are on a large pond/small lake with big open water to the left and a boat out there throwing the other mark, off this page. You are setting up a second mark for the double and have this cattail point in your face, 75 yards out, about 5 yards wide, with a tiny hole of open water in it. What do you do??????? Is it your go bird, or your memory bird? Is it your live bird station or will you put the live birds on the boat (Say you have a red neck committee member who brought his camo bass party barge) Will you throw from the end of the point, or from shore onto the end of the point? or not use the point at all and put your mark in front of it, or in back of it? The wind is hard enough to push birds in open water. Your out to sea bird will drift if you leave it out there too long. What will you do? Place your mark please.
Ken Bora
btw- you cannot move the line ether. say access reasons or something. You are running from there.

 

[Roger Perry]

I would throw the controlled bird from the shore toward the cattails so the wind would not let the bird float off and shoot the flyer from land from the left side of the line angle back left toward the open water as the go bird. I think hitting the birds from a barge with it going up and down in the wind and waves would be hard to hit the birds on a consistant basis. I would shoot them from land.

 

[badbullgator]

My flyer goes off the party barge in the open water as the go bird. The second is thrown from left to right, from the point area falling behind the cattails, directly behind the small water in the cattails, in the open on the other side. The open water go bird is not much of a mark and the meat would all be in memory, perseverance, and hunting ability on the memory bird. I like to see senior dogs get across fingers like that, especially if it is running water in the cattails, and make it a sort of water/land/water mark. I would not use a flyer as the cattail bird because of the variances in the fall. Falling in the cattails would maybe be easier than those falling on the other side as intended. I think a senior dog that has not been worked on reentry will get tied up in the cattails and not push through to the other side.
Running the same set up in the reverse (dead bird in behind the cattails as go) and flyer in open water as memory would make it easier in my opinion but still a fair senior test. It does not make the marks that much easier, but having to handle to the memory that has floated or swam away is easier in open water.

 

[Greg Seddon]

Ken,
I don’t see the purpose of the out to sea mark especially if the wind moves the bird. I would make my control bird (dead bird) the boat mark thrown tight to the tip of the cattails to make the dogs fight the wind factor to get to the bird and so you can see the dog all the way to the mark for the judges and handler. My go bird is a shot flyer or dead bird thrown into the shore or out side of the cattails again they must fight the wind to get to the mark. The go bird #2 should not be too much of a cheating mark if the bird lands where I have placed on your drawing.

Ken you did not mention a blind at all in your test. Since there is very little to work with and the cattails get in the way of seeing the dog I placed the blind just in the first row of cattails near the pothole. I would run the blind first then the marks.
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[twall]

I would follow Greg's lead and move the boat. I don't like the idea of an out to sea bird with a strong wind and not being able to visualize the two marks in my mind. I also like to have one mark land "fairly" close to the line, usally first bird down since we are hunting. This could either be a flier or a winger bird to cause more excitement.

First bird would be thrown from the boat which I would move in closer to the left side of line. Bird thrown left to right landing left of the line. Last bird down thrown out to the edge of cattails landing out on the point with a splash. But, enough in the cattails it won't move with the wind.

The first bird down would have a strong enough attraction some dogs would retrieve this bird first. Second mark would be far enough out on point to make it less likely dogs that faded with the wind and hit land to the right of mark would get lost. But, not impossible.

Decoys in front of the line would "help" seperate the marks.

Tom

 

[Dave Combs]

Bird 1 Shot flier somewhere between the pocket of water and solid ground

Bird 2 In yo' face wipe-out

I'd be looking to see
1) Control & steadyness with the close go mark
2) Memory and ability to fight the factors on the flier, ie running the bank, hunt the cover, avoid 2 gun stations

From a logistics stand point, I try to avoid marks from a boat if at all possible. Too hard to re-bird, not to mention the safety issues.

 

[JS]

I like Dave Combs' #1 bird as an out-of-order flier. Lots of good suction there to get in trouble if they don't mark it well.
Go ahead and throw the control bird out of the boat. (just make sure those guys keep their head down:shock: )
JS

 

[TxFig]

The FIRST thing I'm going to say is: I hate this location for a senior (AKC) test. It's a big, wide open swim with virtually nothing to work with.

Now that that's out of the way, here's what I would do, seeing as how me and my co-judge have been boxed into this corner...

Any mark thrown on the right shore becomes a cheating test, so I avoid that like the plague it is. I don't really like the memory bird where it is as it's pretty much a "gimme" (after all, where else is the dog going to go?). But it's better than having them swim out to sea for a bird that is no longer there.

Note on that blind - this assumes that we can see dogs through the cattails.... If we can't, I probably run a LAND blind with these water marks...

 

[KNorman]

Memory bird in the pocket, go flyer off point...blind outside of guns. Send from boat deck on dry land (if possible)

 

[Kenneth Niles Bora]

I like Dave Combs' #1 bird as an out-of-order flier. Lots of good suction there to get in trouble if they don't mark it well.
JS

I do as well, that is a good set up

 

[Kenneth Niles Bora]

The FIRST thing I'm going to say is: I hate this location for a senior (AKC) test. It's a big, wide open swim with virtually nothing to work with.

and that is what the middle level gets a lot of the time. Junior may be huge. Master may be huge. But the senior/intermediate stake often has the smallest numbers and gets shoved off to the side/back of the grounds. That is why I drew it this way 8) :wink:

 

[Polock]

I like Dave Combs' #1 bird as an out-of-order flier. Lots of good suction there to get in trouble if they don't mark it well.
JS

I do as well, that is a good set up

I'll disagree with this setup.............though the out-of-order flyer is good, to tempt a young senior/intermediate dog with an in your face bird is uncalled for.
The senior/intermediate dawg is usually fresh out of running junior and is still building his foundation for success. Your encouraging the dawg to fail with a break. As mentioned before, senior/intermediate entries are usually lower than other stakes because the dawgs and handlers are still growing.

I would think this type of setup would draw strong criticizim from the handlers involved...........and the judges & FTC would take quite a bit of bad press...........if they allow this poor setup........... :?

 

[JS]

I like Dave Combs' #1 bird as an out-of-order flier. Lots of good suction there to get in trouble if they don't mark it well.
JS

I do as well, that is a good set up

I'll disagree with this setup.............though the out-of-order flyer is good, to tempt a young senior/intermediate dog with an in your face bird is uncalled for.
The senior/intermediate dawg is usually fresh out of running junior and is still building his foundation for success. Your encouraging the dawg to fail with a break. As mentioned before, senior/intermediate entries are usually lower than other stakes because the dawgs and handlers are still growing.

I would think this type of setup would draw strong criticizim from the handlers involved...........and the judges & FTC would take quite a bit of bad press...........if they allow this poor setup........... :?

I agree, Polock. Only half of my post was quoted.
I suggested throwing the 2nd bird (control bird) out of the boat, which was out in the open water to the left..
JS

 

[paul young]

memory bird where blind is shown in sketch, thrown from the tip of the cattails, left to right.

go bird 30-40 yards to the left of the line, thrown out into the open water, into 12-18 decoys.

as dog returns with 2nd bird retrieved, guy on the point throws a duck flat to the left, into open water. there's your blind.-paul

 

[Buzz]

memory bird where blind is shown in sketch, thrown from the tip of the cattails, left to right.

go bird 30-40 yards to the left of the line, thrown out into the open water, into 12-18 decoys.

as dog returns with 2nd bird retrieved, guy on the point throws a duck flat to the left, into open water. there's your blind.-paul

I like that. Especially since (aside from the blind) it was what I was thinking yesterday. Although I may have placed the bird behind the puddle on the point.

 

[kjrice]

memory bird where blind is shown in sketch, thrown from the tip of the cattails, left to right.

go bird 30-40 yards to the left of the line, thrown out into the open water, into 12-18 decoys.

as dog returns with 2nd bird retrieved, guy on the point throws a duck flat to the left, into open water. there's your blind.-paul

Blind distance would be too far per NAHRA rules.

 

[MooseGooser]

I'd like this one!!!!!

 

[Tim Carrion]

May not be a Senior test but:

Flower pot double with the guns standing 1/2 way along the point in front of the open water puddle. #1 deadbird thrown to the right on land in corner of cove,#2 flyer shot towards end of the point.
Use the boat to plant a blind on a float out in open water 30-40 yds beyond and about 10 yds off the point. Casting away from the point where there was a flyer into large open water and into the wind could be fun :wink:

 

[kjrice]

Flower pot double with the guns standing 1/2 way along the point in front of the open water puddle. #1 deadbird thrown to the right on land in corner of cove,#2 flyer shot towards end of the point.
Use the boat to plant a blind on a float out in open water 30-40 yds beyond and about 10 yds off the point. Casting away from the point where there was a flyer into large open water and into the wind could be fun.

You're evil!

The missing piece (IMO ) is how thick and high are the cats and how much it impedes the AOF. In addition, the elevation of the land behind the point.

 

[Buzz]

May not be a Senior test but:

Flower pot double with the guns standing 1/2 way along the point in front of the open water puddle. #1 deadbird thrown to the right on land in corner of cove,#2 flyer shot towards end of the point.
Use the boat to plant a blind on a float out in open water 30-40 yds beyond and about 10 yds off the point. Casting away from the point where there was a flyer into large open water and into the wind could be fun :wink:

I'm gonna run that when the water gets warm enough up here. It's freezing over tonight. Ran blinds through a running winding stream toinght and the dogs were breaking ice.