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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
I've been reading up the Master Hunter format and requirements on the AKC website. There are a few things that I don't quite grasp; perhaps someone would be kind enough to clarify a few points?

Dogs shall be tested in a minimum of 5 hunting situations as follows: multiple land marks, multiple water marks, an upland hunting test, a land blind(s) and a water blind(s). There shall be at least 3 series. Diversion birds and/or diversion shots must be used at least once.
Does three series imply that on the day the dog will actually run 3 times and thus complete 15 "situations"?

In a retriever Trial, just exactly what does the dog have to do in the upland situation? Quest, run a pattern, upwind, crosswind, flush a bird that's shot? I never see any reference to this upland business on RTF so it's as clear as mud right now.

I think I've got the rest, but I wonder what the degree of separation is on the multiple marks? Given that the maximum distance allowed is only 125 yards I'd guess it was quite tight, but again, I don't really know.

Thanks in advance,

Eug
 

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AKC Retriever Hunt tests do not have an upland section, was that a Spanial Test?

9. CHAPTER 5, SECTION 6. Master Hunting Test. Dogs shall be tested in a minimum of five hunting situations as follows: multiple land marks, multiple water marks, multiple marks on water and land, a land blind and a water blind (at least one that shall be a double blind in any combination). There shall be at least three series. At least one of the series shall include a walk-up. Diversion birds and/or diversion shots such as described in Chapter 3, Section 24, must be used at least once. In Master tests, in at least two multiple marking situations the dog’s marking/memory will be tested with at least three (3) falls, before the dogs is sent to retrieve. During a double set of marks (2 falls) Master judges shall include additional elements of testing i.e. walkup, diversion bird, diversion shot, blind/s etc. in testing the dog’s abilities.

Usually a MH test is 3 series, land, land/water and water. The elements are worked into those.

Bert
 

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The Master usually has 3 series and it usually takes 2 days if the numbers in each flight are high-like 60+. Each series works in a number of the required situations-sometimes the first series contains more of the required series and takes longer because there are fewer handlers running each subsequent series. In the beginning they had an upland requirement but it took too long I think was the reason they no longer have it in the Master. Other venues do upland. I've seen pretty tight marks and blinds through them, or poison birds that can't be picked up. There is also a walk-up and honor, judges choice when.
 

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It wasn't a spaniel test, no multitple birds.
 

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Here is the link to the AKC rule book for Retriever hunt tests. there are a few changes that have not been added to the rule book yet, but nothing too major except as rbr (Bert) noted in his post.

https://www.akc.org/pdfs/rulebooks/RHTRET.pdf

THe major things that you need to understand are "Area of the fall" and blinds. While running blinds dogs should not hunt but follow your directions. The blinds are run often through or past where the marks have fallen or tight to the gunners/throwers stations and as such can often greatly influence how he dog wants to run.
 

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Discussion Starter · #7 ·
I still don't get it. Remember what seems patently obvious to you, doesn't mean a thing to me. I don't know what a "series" is, that's what is at the root of the question.

Imagine you are addressing a rather dim five year old (I'm close!) and frame the answer that way.

In my mind I imagine turning up on the day, taking the water marks, then the land marks, then the land/water marks, then the land blind(s) then the water blind(s). That I think is a series. Because there are to be three series, I reckon I'll have to run two more complete sets (differently arranged of course) and thus run in fifteen separate "situations". I can accept that somewhere along the way there will be a walk up and honour, that's fine.

Am I getting warmer?

As regards "tight" or not, I'm a chap wot measures things. On a 100 yard double blind, if the birds are at equal distance from the line, how close would they have to be before you called "foul".

I crave your indulgence!

Eug

Eug
 

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Think of each series as a test. Usually the first test will be your land or land water test, with or without a blind or blinds, an honor or a walk-up. The second test may be the land water test or the land if it has not been done, maybe with a double blind (land water). Often the water test is last because it takes longer to swim and then there are less dogs by the 3rd test, but judges can do whatever they want in whatever order they want.
 

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Dogs shall be tested in a minimum of 5 hunting situations as follows: multiple land marks, multiple water marks, an upland hunting test, a land blind(s) and a water blind(s). There shall be at least 3 series. Diversion birds and/or diversion shots must be used at least once.

A complete Master test needs to test dogs on the 5 elements (situations). Those 5 elements can be presented in 3 or more series. So, some examples. Each example could be a complete master test. Generally, each series is run by all dogs, then the next series is set up and run. Once all series are completed (for a single example), the judges determine which dogs completed the series in such a fashion as to be awarded a "Pass"

Example 1: 5 series
Series 1: multiple land marks,
Series 2: multiple water marks,
Series 3: an upland hunting test,
Series 4:a land blind
Series 5: a water blind.


Example 2: 3 series
Series 1: multiple land marks, and a land blind
Series 2: multiple water marks, and a water blind
Series 3: an upland hunting test,


Example 3: 4 series
Series 1: multiple land marks,
Series 2: multiple water marks,
Series 3: an upland hunting test,
Series 4: a land blind, a water blind.


Example 4: 4 series
Series 1: multiple land marks, a land blind
Series 2: multiple marks, both land and water
Series 3: multiple water marks, a water blind
Series 4: an upland hunting test,

The permutations are endless. I do not run HTs, so if I got something wrong, I am sure someone will chastise me.;-);-)
 

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Typical Example of a Master Hunt Test-simplified

Series #1 Land Marks Three gun stations are in the field on a primarily dry land area. The first gunner fires a blank from a shot gun and throws a bird. The second gunner does the same. The third gun station has multiple gunners shooting live ammo at a live bird. When the birds are down and the judges release the dog, it goes out and picks them up one at a time in which ever order desired by the handler.

Series #2 Land Blind - may be incorporated in Series #1 above A dead bird is planted in the field. The handler handles the dog to the bird. The line to the bird may be made more difficult by going under the arc of the live flyer or the arc of a dead bird throw, near the bird box, etc. The dog must take a direct line to the bird and obey all of the whistle stops and hand signals.

Series #3 Land/Water Marks Once again three gun stations are placed in the field. There are usually three dead birds thrown in this series. There are a combination of marked retrieves on water and on land.

Series #4 Water Marks Once again three gun stations including a live flyer. The dog must take water to get to the marks.

Series #5 Water blind. Two birds are planted and run as blind retrieves. The dogs must take a straight line to the birds, so it may mean swimming parallel to the shore for 50 yds or going over a point of land. These blinds may be incorporated into one of the other series.

There are other concepts that are required somewhere along the way such as a walk up, a diversion and an honor.

Hope that helps. A search of You Tube should turn up some visual examples an actual hunt test.
 

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Col, you might think of it in terms of series = set-up.

The first series is the first set-up, and all dogs run it. The second series is the second set-up, and only the dogs that made it through the first series run. And so on.

Hope this helps.
 

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Typical Example of a Master Hunt Test-simplified

Series #1 Land Marks Three gun stations are in the field on a primarily dry land area. The first gunner fires a blank from a shot gun and throws a bird. The second gunner does the same. The third gun station has multiple gunners shooting live ammo at a live bird. When the birds are down and the judges release the dog, it goes out and picks them up one at a time in which ever order desired by the handler.

Series #2 Land Blind - may be incorporated in Series #1 above A dead bird is planted in the field. The handler handles the dog to the bird. The line to the bird may be made more difficult by going under the arc of the live flyer or the arc of a dead bird throw, near the bird box, etc. The dog must take a direct line to the bird and obey all of the whistle stops and hand signals.

Series #3 Land/Water Marks Once again three gun stations are placed in the field. There are usually three dead birds thrown in this series. There are a combination of marked retrieves on water and on land.

Series #4 Water Marks Once again three gun stations including a live flyer. The dog must take water to get to the marks.

Series #5 Water blind. Two birds are planted and run as blind retrieves. The dogs must take a straight line to the birds, so it may mean swimming parallel to the shore for 50 yds or going over a point of land. These blinds may be incorporated into one of the other series.

There are other concepts that are required somewhere along the way such as a walk up, a diversion and an honor.

Hope that helps. A search of You Tube should turn up some visual examples an actual hunt test.
See above
Eug there is not an upland component of an AKC Retriever hunt test. All dogs run from the same spot determined by the judges. That spot is called "The Line". Even in a "walk up" all the dogs will run from roughly the same spot, walk up is a short walk normally about 10 yards.
 

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I still don't get it. Remember what seems patently obvious to you, doesn't mean a thing to me. I don't know what a "series" is, that's what is at the root of the question.

Imagine you are addressing a rather dim five year old (I'm close!) and frame the answer that way.

In my mind I imagine turning up on the day, taking the water marks, then the land marks, then the land/water marks, then the land blind(s) then the water blind(s). That I think is a series. Because there are to be three series, I reckon I'll have to run two more complete sets (differently arranged of course) and thus run in fifteen separate "situations". I can accept that somewhere along the way there will be a walk up and honour, that's fine.

Am I getting warmer?

As regards "tight" or not, I'm a chap wot measures things. On a 100 yard double blind, if the birds are at equal distance from the line, how close would they have to be before you called "foul".

I crave your indulgence!

Eug

Eug
In a typical Master, that I've run anyway, you will walk to the line 3 separate times, assuming you get called back after each series. All dogs will run the first series, there will be a break while the judges confer and tally their scores, (the next test is also set up during this time, hence the need for good workers and efficiency), then the dogs that get to move on will be "called back" for the next series. All of those called back will run the 2nd series and again, judges will score, then dogs that are still in the game are called back for the 3rd series. Between the 3 series, all of the required components will be covered, but not everything in each series, there only needs to be one walkup and one honor total, for example. There can be more than 3 series, but there has to be at least 3 series per the rules.

As far as tightness of marks/blinds, they can extremely tight, nothing against the rules in MH as far as how tight, but judges need to be able to judge a dog's hunt for a mark and the line for a blind, so they need some definition, how much will depend on the terrain, etc.
 

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Below is a link to video of a land/water series at a master hunt. Each time the judge raises his wite notebook at the begining a bird is being thrown. 3 birds are thrown and the judges have the handler(person with dog) reheel the dog before sending because the dog crept out ahead of the line/handler(bad). After the dog retrieves the third bird the Handler takes him back to the blind( the cloth stand) while they plant a dead bird out in the field. The handler comes up to the line again and sends his dog. The dog took a perfectly straight line and picks up the bird without a handle(direction from the handler in route to the blind(planted bird).

Note this Series included a triple mark (thrown birds the dog saw in the air from the line) and a single land Blind(bird that is planted that the dog does not see in the air or ground).Therre would be at least two other series in a complete Master test.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zNH9oE5ufaQ
 

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Below is a video of a land series. The judge here is signaling for the birds to be thrown with a radio. The dog watches the 3 birds go down from the line the handler is holding a fake gun. The dog picks up the three birds (bad moth habits delivering the birds) and the judge then points out to the handler where the first blind is. The handler stops the dog several times with a whistle and directs the dog with hand signals to the bird. The judge then tells the handler where the second blind is and the handler sends the dog and again stops it a few times to give it instructions (hand signals) enroute to the bird.

This would be a typical land series with a double blind.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1GL2cTXQLb4
 

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This may help. This is an example of a straight forward Master land series. It consists of a triple (3 marks), followed by a double blind:

http://youtu.be/3e0tAEzck8g
In this one the dog comes to the line and watches the three marks go down and retrieves the 3 marks (birds dog has seen in the air). Then the handler takes dog behind the blind(camo cloth) so dog cannot see the blinds(birds that the dog has not seen in the air) being placed (planted) in the field. Note in the background you can see the two people walking out and placing the birds.

This would also be a typical land series with a Double blind.
 

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Discussion Starter · #18 · (Edited)
Thank you all very much, I get it now. The videos posted were very interesting and informative so a special "Ta" to those who put them up. Some stuff I was impressed with, others left "deep sentiments of no enthusiasm" in Blimps bosom. All that barking and yapping for one, it'd drive me potty. I followed the "Layla" video to the authors other posts ... good fun.

The wording in the AKC Regs I did find confusing; it seems to imply that the whole caboodle is repeated three times and that clearly isn't the case. I thought it was strange, it'd take a month of Sundays to get sixty or seventy dogs through that lot.

The thing that would confound my mutts in MH would be the water work. I hardly train for it all, and it's only just a bit of summer evening fun down by the River Severn when I do. They probably run three water blinds in a season between them, and if they run the bank, "what, me worry?"

Eug
 

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Some stuff I was impressed with, others left "deep sentiments of no enthusiasm" in Blimps bosom. All that barking and yapping for one, it'd drive me potty.
The barking was annoying and it is not usual at a test. I don't know if someone had a noisy truck at the line but don't think that is how it usually is. One of the videos did not look usual to me of a Master either in this part of the country because they are much more difficult.
 

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Here's an overhead view of the three series in a Master test.

This one started with a land triple, birds were thrown right then centre then left, with the centre bird as an out-of-order flyer. It was also a walk-up. So this series included the required land multiple, and walkup.

Second series was a water double thrown left then right, with honour dog sitting to the working dog's right. Honour dog was dismissed after the working dog was enroute to the first mark. After the marks there was a diversion shot and dogs ran the blind (orange line). So water multiple, honour, diversion, and water blind were fulfilled here.

Third series was a land-water triple with a double blind (orange lines). Marks were thrown right, then centre, and left last. So this one fulfilled the requirements for a land-water multiple, and a double blind (which also included the land blind).
 
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