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KG said:
Also a boat off to the side with ducks in it.

Probably won't be seeing this sort of "diversion" anymore in the very near future.
Keith, can you explain. Are you saying that Don Driggers’ letter to RFTNews have been adopted as a rule change?
 

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I hope everybody has read Mike Lardy's article on blinds in Retriever Journal May-April edition. As a long time all-age judge that uses poison birds I feel that this certainly is under the natural hunting conditions that we all want a finished retriever to do. I realize that there are some people who whine about this type of test. But I also realize that there are many trainers who have no trouble with this type of test. Their dogs look stylish and the dogs can mark the short retired guns. There are other people, namely some amateurs, whose dogs never seem to get by a poison bird. I think this would indicate a weakness in their training program. I would not be in favor in a rule change to restrict judges in this type of activity. I do realize in some cases the planted poison bird could be unfair because the wind sometimes changes direction. But this is true in any all-age test, the wind changes slightly and dogs may not wind a short retired gun. I am not in favor of a rule change to accommodate an inadequate training program.

Jack
 

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I do realize in some cases the planted poison bird could be unfair because the wind sometimes changes direction. But this is true in any all-age test, the wind changes slightly and dogs may not wind a short retired gun.
The critical difference between the two is that the short retired bird is seen as a mark; the other is a planted hazard.

kg
 

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K G said:
I do realize in some cases the planted poison bird could be unfair because the wind sometimes changes direction. But this is true in any all-age test, the wind changes slightly and dogs may not wind a short retired gun.
The critical difference between the two is that the short retired bird is seen as a mark; the other is a planted hazard.

kg
So what? The dog isn't supposed to be under controll if the scent is from an unexpected source? Don't we often run bilinds in the field where they just ran the marks and use those old fall areas, or even flier crates as suction? What's the differnece? As long as the hazard is known to all, and the handler has a chance to handle the dog there, what's the problem?

Try hunting in a public area, sometime. My dogs have found MANY birds that we didn't know were there.

I agree with Ted's reply myself.
 

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Take it down a notch, Doug. All I did was describe the difference between the two hazards. I did not endorse or denigrate one versus the other. Geez........... :roll:

And who is the "Ted" you agree with?

kg
 

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..
 

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..we have had SH tests, actual scenario..that a boat is tucked away off to the side with bird boy/ducks...has to paddle out to a tuft in the water..place a duck for blind and paddle back into reeds(quite some distance away in this particular situation).. Scent, perhaps a little shift in breeze ...pulls dogs off line to blind and if they do not cast out of that scent get way off line and to the boat hidden away. The later one ran the worse it became.

..and another.. crates dragged across a field to edge of water, loaded into boat and paddled out to hide away for water blind. The series consisted of two dry shots (one for land blind, one for water blind) and then a live flyer on land..

If flyer done well, invited to the land blind (had to run across crate scented area) to blind...then invited to water blind..(had to cast off edge of water where boat was loaded with crate and then paddled off..lots of tall cover. All about control and willing to cast out of scent. Good test...not all were successful. A dog with a good nose is hard to fault!!! ...handler failure in training.. :) should be..
 

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I am not in favor of a rule change to accommodate an inadequate training program.
If you can't do it, make it illegal. 8)
 

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Or at least can't lose on that one aspect. :wink:

The beautiful thing about any rule changes is that once they are proposed by the RAC, they have to be voted on by FT holding clubs since our breed club does not "rule" our events like some breeds do, particularly pointing breeds.

kg
 

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The discussion I participated in on Saturday with a couple of pros, at least 4 8pt judges and 1 AKC rep over burgers and fries focused on this very issue.

The problem area that hit a nerve with most supporters of a rule change was a retrievable dead bird, unseen and planted on route to the blind. No one had a problem with a true poison bird, scented area or point, or an old fall.

The main underlying concern was that a "leave it" bird was simply a trap to eliminate dog, esp as close to the line as we are seeing these birds recently.

Still have not made up my mind on this one yet.
 

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I know this is prolly another conversation that is “too lofty” for someone like me…but shouldn’t a well trained retriever go where he/she is handled? I have seen a few poison birds that were nearly on line and were clearly unfair but a bird upwind at “reasonable” distance from the line shouldn’t be a problem.
 

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The problem lies not in the closeness to the line or even under the arch, but the fact that the bird is a "surprise" bird to the dog.

With a true poison bird, the handler can "communicate" to the dog that the bird is not to be retrieved.

It was the general concensous at this table that a "suprise leave it" bird rewards dogs that don't honor their nose and does not contribute anything to quality testing of the dog.

If you want to test control, there are much better ways to do it.
 

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Doug Main said:
....Try hunting in a public area, sometime. My dogs have found MANY birds that we didn't know were there.......
That's the problem, the good dogs do find the bird, with the handler having no opportunity to instruct the dog before the dog is sent to leave it alone.
 

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Gerard Rozas said:
The discussion I participated in on Saturday with a couple of pros, at least 4 8pt judges and 1 AKC rep over burgers and fries focused on this very issue.

The problem area that hit a nerve with most supporters of a rule change was a retrievable dead bird, unseen and planted on route to the blind. No one had a problem with a true poison bird, scented area or point, or an old fall.

The main underlying concern was that a "leave it" bird was simply a trap to eliminate dog, esp as close to the line as we are seeing these birds recently.

Still have not made up my mind on this one yet.

I agree...

Plant your blind(s), shoot the poison bird that the running dog can see as a mark, do your blind. Even the hard charging, bird loving dogs can be trained to look good doing this with lots of style.

Leave birds lying around in the field; hang them from trees like Christmas decorations and you’re just tricking the dogs. It’s not hard to trick a retriever
 

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No one had a problem with a true poison bird, scented area or point, or an old fall.
If not directly on the Fairway to the blind—Why, if the scented area or point would have a bird planted in it or on it ... would it then present a special class of problem vs. a "surprise"scented area without one :?:

Would it then be OK to have a bird in or on those areas staked down and out of sight. . . in a camo bag :wink:

No, It is not the surprise poision bird that is the problem per se, it's the new wave blind scoring mentality in it's entireity.

Marking is of primary importance regards,
john
 

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Would it then be OK to have a bird in or on those areas staked down and out of sight. . . in a camo bag

I see no problem with an UNRETRIEVABLE bird, such as crates of flyers.

In this case, the dog breaks down, swings off line and starts to hunt. The scent has servered it purpose, now lets see if the dog can handle out of it.
 

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So in your example is the poison bird a “surprise bird” to the dog and handler or just the dog…kind of a 1) “well there is a bird our there somewhere” or is it 2) “the poison bird is RIGHT THERE 10 yards upwind of the line of the blind”?
 

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Mitch Patterson said:
Leave birds lying around in the field; hang them from trees like Christmas decorations and you’re just tricking the dogs. It’s not hard to trick a retriever
What's the difference between scenting an area, like the backside of a point, after every 4 or 5 dogs vs. putting birds there so that it remains scented?

I agree today, poison birds are no big deal. Most all-age dogs know the concept. If you tell them to leave it, some will litterally run right over the top of it without picking it up!

Handling a dog off a bird is no big deal either. All it is is training, and expectations of the dog. You have to do it in training. Train for a while using only bumpers for the blinds, and plant birds that the dog has to run by and not pick up. It won't take long and birds in the field on a blind are no big deal. :wink:

Maybe I'm tainted by my hunting & HT background, where we regularly have diversion shots or diversion birds, & I just don't see the big deal. One of my 1st master tests as a handler had flier shot as a diversion bird from a hidden gun station on the way to the blind. Talk about a suprise bird!!! Yet, most of the dogs running Master could handle the distraction. That was more than 10 years ago. You can't tell me those master dogs are better trained better handling dogs than today's all-age dogs. :roll:

The FT Supplement to the Standard provides:
(8) The encountering of wild birds, rabbits, or other
game by the working dog also presents a problem, and
sometimes creates great inequalities. Dogs, particularly
in All-Age stakes, should ignore such distractions or be
sufficiently under control to be “handled’’ to the “fall.’’
Here we are talking about blinds, not marks. And it is not wild game where it would be encounted for one dog and not the rest, rather a planted bird which would be there for all the dogs. But, shouldn't the all-age dog be "sufficiently under control to be 'handled'" to the blind despite such distractions? I certainly think so.

Certainly, some common sense is needed, to allow for even the fastest dog the opportunity to be handled.
 
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