[AmiableLabs]

Here is the gradiant, from lowest to highest: poor - fair - good - very-good - excellent.

Here is the question: Is it reasonable to believe a "very-good amateur trainer" with a "very-good dog" can earn a field championship without the aid of a professional?

Why or why not? Would it take only an "excellent trainer" with an "excellent dog" to do it without the pro?

 

[Canman]

Just about everyone in the field trial game has used the aid of a pro to some degree. We have read their books, watched their tapes, attended their seminars, asked them informal questions, placed a dog to correct a problem or use them for full time training. It is just a matter of where you want to draw that line.

 

[AmiableLabs]

Just about everyone in the field trial game has used the aid of a pro to some degree. . . .It is just a matter of where you want to draw that line.

The line I was intending to draw is at where the pro directly assists in the training and/or handling.

Not indirectly.

 

[T. Mac]

Here is the gradiant, from lowest to highest: poor - fair - good - very-good - excellent.

Here is the question: Is it reasonable to believe a "very-good amateur trainer" with a "very-good dog" can earn a field championship without the aid of a professional?

Why or why not? Would it take only an "excellent trainer" with an "excellent dog" to do it without the pro?

Boy, can his be read many ways. Take a case of a good pro who decides to go amateur. Doesn't accept any client dogs for a year or derive any monetary benefit from his training group, etc. Yes this amateur could probably do it with ease.

Could an amateur who has put multiple titles on dogs with the aid of a pro take a new dog to a title without the aid of a pro. Probably!

Can an amateur fresh out of the qual or from the hunt test game take a dog to a title with out any pro help. Well if they were in the training groups of the 2 above maybe, if not, I'd doubt it.

TM

 

[Hidden Valley]

title

I voted yes, but with "conditions".

An AM. with his first dog, not having help, I doubt it. (that was me)
A good am. trainer learns with each dog he/she trains, IMHO. Therefore, in time, I believe yes.

 

[Jerry]

I think it's very possible and probably happens more often than we know. But in order to do it the Am needs a suitable background and ACCESS to grounds.

Jerry

 

[Jay Miller]

I think it happens, but not all that frequently. One of the reasons we bought our field trial female was because she was out of a male who was trained and trialed like this. FC AFC Candlewoods Desert Storm MH with 138 AA points ran many Nationals, finished two, one open and one amateur. Stormy also won three double headers. I know Don had a lot of help along the way but he did all the training and trialing.

 

[Howard N]

Right off the top of my head I'm coming up with Roy McFall and Len Ferucci. Then on this list there's Dr. and Mrs. Ed.

I don't know for sure but I believe Randy Bohn doesn't use a pro and what about Puff Daddy's owner, is it Franz Hertz? He like Randy Bohn is also on this list. (Sorry for not knowing exactly)

It's not only doable it's done! Ask Jack Volstadt or John Cavanaugh.

 

[Debbie]

Yes, I do believe that is can be done, that is already has been done and that it will continue to be done.

Hey, who knows, I may be the next one to title my Winnie. No promises, no guarantees . . . but we're going to give it our best try.

I'll admit it - I'm competitive. That's why I run FTs. I ain't in this game for the "fun" of plopping down 100+ dollars every trial weekend just to get my butt kicked. I want those colored ribbons and blue is a very nice color!

Debbie

 

[Howard N]

I want those colored ribbons and blue is a very nice color!

Ditto, and if Future FC Whitewater Troublesome Jeri can't live up to my expectations then Future FC Oakdale Whitewater Devil Dog will.

 

[Debbie]

I want those colored ribbons and blue is a very nice color!

Ditto, and if Future FC Whitewater Troublesome Jeri can't live up to my expectations then Future FC Oakdale Whitewater Devil Dog will.

OK, I just had a novel idea, but would AKC let me do it? My mother's name was Frances Caroline, so in honor of her I register my next dog as . . . FC Dawg and it would always have those precious letters in front of it's name. Hmmm........

Debbie

 

[Howard N]

Doggone AKC has those silly little rules. I tried to name one Aironca Champ one time and they wouldn't let me. Why not, they had a Piper Cub anda Piper Pacer? :lol:

 

[AmiableLabs]

I apprecviate all the votes and replies.

But some of you need to revisit the specifics of the question. The Aycocks and John Cavanaugh, amongst others, hardly classify as "very-good" they would be considered "excellent."

So the question is could someone not quite as good as they are earn a field championship?

Thanks.

 

[Debbie]

Well, I stick by my original reply which was made with your "very good" criteria in mind . . .

"Yes, I do believe that is can be done, that it already has been done and that it will continue to be done."

I'm not yet too up-to-date on a lot of today's trialers, but I can cite you several Amateurs from the past that should be familar names:
1. Don Burnett, Idaho - Westwind's Lucky Bounce
2. George Wilson - Misty Morning Teal and Watergator Will
3. Linda and Arnie Ervin - pick any of their dogs - and they are still competitive today

Granted, these people, except Linda and Arnie, were not competing against today's dogs but they competed against the best ones of their times and succeeded. Judy and Ed were constant participants in western trials with Cody and Harvey.

While you might now say that they are all "excellent" handlers, I bet they weren't when they first started. And since George Wilson was our training partner, I know for a fact that Teal (his first FT dog) wasn't born an "excellent" dog and George wasn't born an "excellent" handler.

And you may or may not be familiar with Jimmy Darnell from southeast Missouri and his young dogs China and Cane, each of which has an Amateur win plus other places and Jams. They are both destined to title, IMO.

Debbie

 

[Howard N]

Very good dog with very good trainer and handler will get the job done. And like Debbie said the excellent ones didn't start out excellent. They had to work their way up and learn their skills, while they were trying to teach their dog. I bet NO ONE whupped up on Lardy or Farmer the first time out. And I bet Lardy and Farmer didn't do a lot of that whuppin the first few times out either.

I'm not sure what the difference is between poor, fair, good, very-good, and excellent are. It's pretty subjective and would depend on what game you played. Look at Ted Shih's post on how many dogs he's gone through. I've gone through at least as many. Now what did I keep out of the ones I've weeded through? Were they excellent or were they very good, or just good? Danged if I know, I want a dog that can do the job. Maybe because the dogs I washed weren't any good to me the ones I kept were good. :?: It's getting into a semantics thing. I do know that if you aren't any good as a handler and trainer, you won't get very far no matter how excellent your dog is.

 

[ErinsEdge]

IF you were a very naturally gifted handler or watched a ton of handlers at trials; IF you had a gifted dog that marked above average; IF you trained at least 5 days a week with a large group of similar amateurs with big set ups AND flyers (Don Wolf trained almost everyday, including drills, with an outstanding group, Mary Hillman does also); IF you have access to your own varied land and technical water (like John Pease's growing property); and IF you had a larger amount of disposable income than most, a job that allowed you to train, and weekends off. Many amateurs DO train with pros and seek advice from pros. Could a novice amateur (in the sport 1-3 years) with a job and a family train his dog completely by himself without outside help (with or without gunners)? Sure, it could happen, just like people win the Power Ball.

 

[Tim Carrion]

Simple Formula:

very good dog + very good trainer + time + help + grounds + $ = points

Tim :wink:

Do not ever ask how many $. Like the commercial, the cost of an all-age point "priceless"!

 

[labsforme]

Howard,how about adding John Poer to the list of NW amateurs that have done well without a pro?

 

[Miriam Wade]

"Boomer" aka AFC FTCH AFTCH OTCH TNT Explosion -a Golden owned by the Gunn's in Canada qualifies. He's 100% owner/amateur trained & handled. Boomer finished the year w/ 34 combined points (4 wins) & was a 2003 U.S. National Amateur Finalist. He also qualified for the 2003 Open & Amateur Canadian nationals.

8)

M

 

[subroc]

Many interesting posts highlighting the accomplished amateur.

Are these amateurs very good trainers as the question asked or are they the best in the nation, actually rivaling in competence many of the top professionals?

The specific question asked is it reasonable, not possible.

Joe Miano