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Is this rule obeyed as it is currently being adjudicated by AKC FT judges today?

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  • No.

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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
"Dogs which disturb cover unnecessarily, clearly well out
of the area of the 'fall,' either by not going directly to that
area, or by leaving it, even though they eventually find the
bird without being handled, should be penalized more
severely than those handled quickly and obediently to it."


-- AKC FT Rules and Standard Procedures for Retrievers
Part 2 Evaluation of Dog Work
1. Natural Abilities (1)

Is this rule obeyed as it is currently being adjudicated by AKC FT judges today?

My FT friends tell me why they don't handle -- "Handling is a confession my dog didn't mark;" "Some judges will never place a handle, and even less frequently place a handle over a big hunt."

But what about the rules? Is this rule obsolete?

(And quite honestly, this is not just a question for AKC FTs. The same problem exists in both HRC and AKC HTs! Handlers are afraid to handle on marks, even clean and quick ones that would move the testing along, because of the fear of being penalized by the judges.)
 

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Hunt tester here!

I think some of what you bring up has some merrit but,,

I agree that a handle conceeds the point that the dog didnt mark. If in a test, all my marks have been clean, and I'm on the last mark, and the dog is having trouble with it, then I will handle in a country second!
I think then, you Must display a clean handle TO THE BIRD and it be quick!
I think a good judge appreciates this!

Hunt tests though are still marking tests. I feel they should be judged as such!--- Dog should mark well. If you have trouble on 1 mark, use the rule (disturbing cover) and get the mark and the dog back as quick as possible!

JMHDAO

Gooser
 

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Discussion Starter · #3 ·
MooseGooser said:
I agree that a handle conceeds the point that the dog didnt mark.
It does, but it shouldn't.

It should be left in the mind of the judge if the dog marked, regardless if the handler decides to handle. And a good judge should be able to tell, regardless if the handler handles.
 

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Should be CLEARLY evident in the eyes of the handler AND the Judge that the dog hasnt marked a fall! Otherwise,, whats the reason for the handle??

If the dog isnt near the AOF or has clearly overran the mark, and has established a hunt nowwhere close,, DOG DIDNT MARK, and I will handle.

If dog goes to the area of fall within reason, and is having a hard time working out the bird because of heavy cover or other circumstances, I will let that dog work. BUT,, as soon as the dog starts to leave the AOF ---- out comes the whistle!! Hopefully the Judge views it as the dog Marking the fall, but couldnt come up with the bird. I'm part of the team, and help the dog back TO THE BIRD.--BUT!!!! the dog really did mark the fall!

In this for instance I respected the amout of Damage to cover, and helped the dog back to the bird as fast as possible, while at the same time letting him try to work out the area he marked the bird!

I guess I dont really understand your point?

Gooser (confused as usual!! :lol: )
 

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OHHHH!!!

And one more thing!!

GOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO Broncos!!


Gooser
 

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I know exactly what you are asking. I recently took my judges test and was kinda surprised to find that in there... we all stand back at our trucks and talk whether we have yet had a handle..
I would say...no..it is not judged that way for the most part.. I think .. that is I THINK... most of the time you are better off letting your dog hunt and stumble on the bird...but, I really don't know that for a fact..
In both cases you are going to get scored for a bad mark... I think maybe it is a handlers perception more than what really is happening with the judges..
so that guy that tells me he was "clean" on his marks but still got dropped...now I wonder what he meant by clean..
so.. I think the dog that goes to the area and is 6 foot off and the handler sits him down and gives a quick over is ahead of the dog that is 30 yd off and eventually comes up with it... I think..
but how about where both are 10 feet off and one gives a quick whistle and handle and the other has an extended hunt in the area but comes up with it..
I guess the safe thing is to give the advantage to the dog without the handle, but like you pointed out, the advantage would seem to lean toward the quick handle in the rule book..
good topic and im anxious to see the replies from some of the experienced judges..
 

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I'm also addressing this from the hunt test perspective. I don't think that the handle is being judged overly harsh. I think to many judges are accepting outlandish hunts. A long hunt especially out og the AOF needs to be judged as being worst than a quick handle. In either case the dog is showing it has not correctly marked the fall. Now a long hunt right smack in the middle of the AOF leads me to doubt the ability to scent the bird which is not an AKC HT scoreing catagory anymore. But it does show that the dog marked the bird. As a judge i'll breath a sigh of relief when the dog picks that one up.
 

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I'm also addressing this from the hunt test perspective. I don't think that the handle is being judged overly harsh. I think to many judges are accepting outlandish hunts. A long hunt especially out og the AOF needs to be judged as being worst than a quick handle. In either case the dog is showing it has not correctly marked the fall. Now a long hunt right smack in the middle of the AOF leads me to doubt the ability to scent the bird which is not an AKC HT scoreing catagory anymore. But it does show that the dog marked the bird. As a judge i'll breath a sigh of relief when the dog picks that one up.
 

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AmiableLabs said:
MooseGooser said:
I agree that a handle conceeds the point that the dog didnt mark.
It does, but it shouldn't.

It should be left in the mind of the judge if the dog marked, regardless if the handler decides to handle. And a good judge should be able to tell, regardless if the handler handles.
How would you score a big hunt in the AOF vs a dog that is handled to the AOF from BFE?
 

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FWIW The AKC hunt test regulations ARE different. :wink:

In Chapter 3, the HT rules state:
A dog that goes to the area of the fall and finds
the bird unaided shall be scored appreciably higher
than a dog that must be handled to a bird.
In derbies, a handle is now an elimination fault.
 

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Discussion Starter · #11 ·
Patrick Johndrow said:
How would you score a big hunt in the AOF vs a dog that is handled to the AOF from BFE?
I don't know what BFE is?

I have NO problem with a hunt inside the AoF. Big or small, as long as it starts in and remains in the AoF it is fine by me. That is a "mark" to me.

What I have problems with are dogs that begin hunting a hundred yards outside of the AoF and then spend ten minutes until they work themselves to the AoF and stumble on the bird, being scored higher than a dog that is handled from that same point a hundred yards outside the AoF to the bird.

Who is kidding whom? Neither dog marked. One disturbed more cover and needlessly delayed the retrieve and returning to the line.

"Needlessly" except for the fact that handlers think they need to do it for the better placement. A point that is exascerbated by the fact that almost all judges are themselves handlers!
 

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Patrick Johndrow said:
AmiableLabs said:
MooseGooser said:
I agree that a handle conceeds the point that the dog didnt mark.
It does, but it shouldn't.

It should be left in the mind of the judge if the dog marked, regardless if the handler decides to handle. And a good judge should be able to tell, regardless if the handler handles.
How would you score a big hunt in the AOF vs a dog that is handled to the AOF from BFE?

You answered part of the question yourself when you said a big hunt in teh AOF. Key words being in AOF. Many things could play a part in a AOF hunt. I have seen birds bury in mud or in deep slew grass or sinking and if it is a late running dog, lot's of scent to sort out. If the dog is hunting in my AOF, he/she has marked the bird and is doing his/her job digging it
out.
Now, if the dog is way out of the area and shows little or no sign of correcting, I would rather see a clean handle to the bird and see what happens on the next series of marks. If the dog blows the AOF again, I have my answer as to his marking ability on this particular day.
Way too many big hunts this year. As they say, even a blind pig can sometimes find an acorn.
 

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[[/quote]I don't know what BFE is?
Niether do I!!


What I have problems with are dogs that begin hunting a hundred yards outside of the AoF and then spend ten minutes until they work themselves to the AoF and stumble on the bird, being scored higher than a dog that is handled from that same point a hundred yards outside the AoF to the bird.
Tell me your NOT serious!! Have you actually seen this happen! I agree that neither dog marked, but the Handler that handled followed the rules and put his dog on the bird!--HT opinion only!!

Gooser
 

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Boy!! did I screw that up or what!! :oops: :oops: :oops:

Can I come back for the next series???? :oops: :oops:

Gooser
 

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BFE is a well known place in Egypt.

Bum F... Egypt. :lol:
 

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In any event, you're probably going to get dropped because it's obvious the dog did not mark the bird. It also depends on how the other dogs are doing the mark. If they're nailing it, just handle him and go home. If they're all hunting, let him hunt and collect your greenie at the end.
 

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Patrick Johndrow said:
lablover said:
BFE is a well known place in Egypt.

Bum F... Egypt. :lol:
Actually I thought that was universally known :?

BFE is most likely the place you will be passing thru on your way home with a handle in the 1st or the 10 min. hunt.
 
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If your dog pins the mark, he has obviously marked the bird. If he hunts in the area and finds it, he has also marked the bird, maybe to a lesser degree but nonetheless, he has marked it.
If your dog is not in the area of the fall, whether you let him hunt enough ground that he finds himself in the area of the fall or you quickly handle him to the bird, fact remains he has not marked the bird.
There are no concessions with an handle, it should be obvious whether he marked the bird by the location of the dog. So, you can rectify the situation as quickly as possible with a quick handle or take the chance your dog might find his way to the bird, in the meantime, disturbing much cover along the way. Why do judges find it so difficult to go with the rulebook ? A mark is a mark and I suppose giving them credit for finding the bird on their own might be ok, but.....fact remains give a dog enough time and space, he will find a bird. We arent suppose to be judging whether a dog can find a bird but rather, did he mark the bird.
 

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Could not agree with you more Kim!!

It is a vicious cycle:

Dogs today make very few mistakes - so
They will eventually come up with the birds - so
Judges setup ridiculous tests that dogs will fail - so
They can eliminate dogs.

As a JUDGE - you should not be scared to JUDGE marks and make you callbacks accordingly.

SETUP A SOLID REASONABLE TEST - AND JUDGE THE MARKS.
 
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