[AmiableLabs]

Welcome to another poll from Kevin Walker! :wink:

Seriously, this question arises from the thread on Senior marks.

Should Master dogs be judged on their line returning from marks?

For the sake of this poll we will assume the handler has not acted to intervene on the line the dog is taking in return (has not handled).

Notice the specific choice of word -- "should." Notice we are talking about Master, not Senior or Junior.

 

[Lance Vines]

Yes It should be. I don't think it should be something that would fail a dog in itself. The return should not affect the score of the marks because the marking is complete after the retrieve is made. But should be score down on trainablity. IMO

 

[Bob Gutermuth]

I generally do NOT judge the return at any level. However, should the dog do something ignorant, eg wizz on the bird, eat the bird,fail to deliver etc, then you must judge these actions and adjust the score as required.

 

[Misty Marsh]

I would have to say yes. In my opinion a master dog should be expected to be honest both when sent and returning. In my opinion a master dog should be top quality and to me a wondering or excessively slow return is a poor style and trainability issue.

 

[Angie B]

No!

Angie

 

[HarryWilliams]

No. If they choose to not return on their line then they could pay the price as the lines to the marks relate to each other. Self inflicted difficulties for not running true lines. A judges skill in setting marks should out way their use of a pencil sharpener. HPW

 

[Tim Carrion]

So people are saying that bank running when returing from water marks is not a fault in hunt test????? Sounds like a trainability issue!
Don't you correct for this when training???
Tim

 

[brian breuer]

The no's are winning handily.

If you said no what is your reasoning? A cheating dog that smacks the marks is scored high in marking but dinged in perservence, training, etc.

Wouldn't those same qualities be lacking going as well as coming? It would make sense to me if you are going to ding a cheat going out you should ding a cheat coming in.

Unless you don't want to look at lines to the mark at all, just the mark itself. Then neither would matter. At least you are consistent then, either both count or neither counts. One line mattering and not the other I can't get the reasoning behind.

 

[Angie B]

I will not judge the return from a mark. Between the bird placement of the marks and the blinds, I'll have more than enough to get my answers. Even if it was "Brazen", it's worthy only of a side note in my book.

There's more than enough to judge in master test without worrying about that.

Angie

 

[Jerry]

Keep in mind that a "bad" return usually results in a "bad" go for the next bird. Not always, but usually. The dog inflicts it's own penalty by not coming straight back.

Jerry

 

[Paul Rainbolt]

No, as Jerry and others have said the dog can only hurt themselves by not coming straight back. I don't recall a rule regarding the line to and from a mark. But it is wise to train for good lines .

 

[Eric Johnson]

Nope. Once the dog has the bird, I have a few seconds to take care of test logistics, finish a drawing, tell the bird boy where to go to go potty, answer the question, "when's lunch?", etc, etc. Unless the handler asks me to judge his dog's return by blowing the whistle, I'll keep busy doing other things.

Eric

 

[Tim Carrion]

The manner in which a dog returns is addressed in the AKC Guidelines:

I. Style is apparent in every movement of a dog by the gaiety of its manner, by its alertness, by its eagerness and speed on retrieves, by its water-entry, by its pick-up of birds, AND BY ITS RETURN . Style makes for a pleasing performance. Style and Marking constitute the most important abilities of Retrievers,....

Tim

 

[Angie B]

Tim,

"Pleasing performance", is in the eye of the beholder.......

Nice try,

Angie

 

[Tim Carrion]

Tim,

"Pleasing performance", is in the eye of the beholder.......

Nice try,

Angie

The return must be needed to please the eyes of the AKC and RHAC! :wink:

Tim

 

[Angie B]

Tim,

"Pleasing performance", is in the eye of the beholder.......

Nice try,

Angie

The return must be needed to please the eyes of the AKC and RHAC! :wink:

Tim

Who are represented by the very qualified judges selected by the hunt test committee........... :roll: :roll:

again, nice try.

Is this Tim C. posting or the unflappable John Fallon?????

Angie

 

[Miriam Wade]

I can only answer from a handler's perspective. I definitely think there's (obviously) merit in the dog taking the same line back & that's what everyone should train for. I hate to see a dog consistently cheat on the way back, but... ..if the dog took good lines (I know, I know it's not as much about lines in hunt tests) & fought the factors & clearly showed he'd marked the bird well- would you really want to ding him so that he may not pass at the end of the day for? Absolutely warranted on the way to the mark (obviously), but would you see it as a cause for failure?

M

 

[AmiableLabs]

The manner in which a dog returns is addressed in the AKC Guidelines: I. Style. . . .

What does "Style" have to do with Trainability and Perseverence?

To me that rule is saying that "in the return the dog should exhibit style" -- head is up, tail is wagging, there is happiness and pride in his/ger gait.

Certainly you are correct according to the rules the dog "should" be under some judgement on the return! But I don't see the carry over to judging the dog's line returning to the handler.

 

[AmiableLabs]

I want to say one more thing. A lot of these polls are because I don't know the answer. Like in this case, I don't, that is why I asked.

I train the dog on it only to keep the dog honest. But somewhere in my intuition, when testing it seems it shouldn't matter.

 

[brian breuer]

I want to say one more thing. A lot of these polls are because I don't know the answer. Like in this case, I don't, that is why I asked.

I train the dog on it only to keep the dog honest. But somewhere in my intuition, when testing it seems it shouldn't matter.

These are my feelings exactly.

My intuition tells me it shouldn't matter but my logic tells me that if it matters going to the mark it should matter coming back. Or lines to marks shouldn't matter at all. I guess I really feel that if a dog is good enough to cheat the whole thing and still get the birds clean it deserves a 10. Good luck with the water bind though.