[AmiableLabs]

Assuming the RAC and AKC approve a QAA title, in your opinion what is the next logical progression for a dog who has earned its MH -- Master National title or QAA title?

Please explain your answer.

 

[Steve Bean]

To me the MN has artificially raised what is expected in the MH, much so to the detriment of the HT game. I think it is because of the American mind-set of competition, my dog is better than your dog type thinking. I have no problems with leaving the HT the way it is. But if you want more games go play FT. Even though it is competitive, you don't have to get caught up in winning unless your ego commands it. Just be glad to finish in the green. To me that is more meaningful than the MN or the MHX or whatever.

 

[john fallon]

FT and HT's are similar but different games, so the logic of moving up to QAA from MH is fundamentally flawed.
It's like one of 10Pins to Bowling or Cricket to Baseball or Rugby to Football or Barrel Racing to Flat track or even UKFT's to American FT's or, or, or :wink:

No Kevin the logical progression is to stay within.

john-MHX/MNH Title

 

[AmiableLabs]

FT and HT's are similar but different games, so the logic of moving up to QAA from MH is fundamentally flawed.

Bunk.

That is one of the most ignorant statements I have ever read on these boards, and quite honestly I am surprised to hear it from you. Usually you know better.

People can deny it all they want, but when it comes to the dog work, which is at the heart of both, the games are so similar as to be identical. You are testing the same concepts and abilities. The main difference is the "window dressing" on AKC HTs which FTs realize to be as "only so much window dressing."

Proof in the pudding? We recommend the same training books to advanced HTers as we do to FTers!

NOTE: The above comments apply exclusively to AKC HTs and not HRC/UKC HTs. Because in HRC/UKC HTs the dogs are taught to mark off the gun, there is at least one fundamental difference not existing in AKC HTs.

 

[FOM]

I say move up! Standards are just that - if you want to be bigger and better - move up to Quals. Those with MH dogs who feel their dog isn't being challenged by what is required for an MH title - well your next challenge is FTs. Don't ruin it for the person who is trying to play the HT game especially since the HT was designed for the average person. If you create a MHX or whatever then slowly and for surely those higher standards will find their way down into the MH level, just like some of the standards for MH trickles down to SH level. Let those over achievers get their reality check in FTs.

FOM

 

[Steve Bean]

The MH represents all that is desired in a truly finished hunting partner. Pray tell what more could one want....in a hunting retriever. You just need so much dog for hunting, I don't care if it is a FC. Let's say you have the MHX, in 10 years are you going to want the MHX+....where does it stop? Go develop some other game, where you leave the AKC HT out of it if you have to have something else.

 

[john fallon]

FT and HT's are similar but different games, so the logic of moving up to QAA from MH is fundamentally flawed.

Bunk.

That is one of the most ignorant statements I have ever read on these boards, and quite honestly I am surprised to hear it from you. Usually you know better.

People can deny it all they want, but when it comes to the dog work, which is at the heart of both, the games are so similar as to be identical. You are testing the same concepts and abilities. The main difference is the "window dressing" on AKC HTs which FTs realize to be as "only so much window dressing."

Proof in the pudding? We recommend the same training books to advanced HTers as we do to FTers!

NOTE: The above comments apply exclusively to AKC HTs and not HRC/UKC HTs. Because in HRC/UKC HTs the dogs are taught to mark off the gun, there is at least one fundamental difference not existing in AKC HTs.

Well Kevin,
There is no, "lacking of knowledge or comprehension of the thing specified" on my part.
I got my First Retriever in 1954 and have been messing around with them ever since.
On any given day I am involved with the training of 15/20 dogs for both HT and FT
On any given Month during the Local FT/ HT season I can and do run any and every stake in both AKC games From the Open and Amateur all the way down to the Junior Hunter.
Believe me when I tell ya the logical progression is within the HT game
john

 

[john fallon]

The MH represents all that is desired in a truly finished hunting partner. Pray tell what more could one want....in a hunting retriever. You just need so much dog for hunting, I don't care if it is a FC. Let's say you have the MHX, in 10 years are you going to want the MHX+....where does it stop? Go develop some other game, where you leave the AKC HT out of it if you have to have something else.

You know Steve nothing would have to change for the MHX to become a reality but the the implementation of the 50% pass rate that you propose.
Those who qualify with a 50 % pass rate would get a MHX those that have a lesser percentage become a Plain Ole MH :lol: 8)
john

 

[Paul Rainbolt]

I say we get rid of the master title all together. Make it easy on everyone to have the ultimate hunting dog, a senior hunter. I cant remember the last time my dog had to do a triple marked retrieve and then a double water blind with a walk up and a diversion come back and sit steady while my buddy's dog did the next triple while accually hunting so whats the point? This poll is beating a dead horse the post are getting redundant. There is obviously no were else to go at this time but the qual when your done with the masters. How about some real creative solutions or ideas for people who like hunt test dont and want to run the compitive venue of field trial. Some of you folks seem threatend at idea of a more advanced hunt test title, . I still have not heard a good reason as to why it would not be good for the clubs, people and dogs.

 

[Lisa Van Loo]

Those who qualify with a 50 % pass rate would get a MHX those that have a lesser percentage become a Plain Ole MH

After they earn the MH, then reset the clock. From there onwards, X number of passes from 2X entries will get you the MHX.

Those who know they barely scraped together a MH will be less inclined to continue to enter if they know they have to improve their consistency. Could take some of the entry pressure off the weekend tests, plus the MN if the MHX was the prerequisite to enter that event.

I didn't vote for either one in the poll. The "logic" depends entirely on the dog/handler team.

Lisa

 

[Criquetpas]

I have to agree with John Fallon on this one, apples and oranges two different sports!! Sorry Kevin you can't compare the two for progression.


The reason they are separate is the original intent of the evolution of Hunt Tests.

Where should the Hunt Test Progression go? The path of the obedience game is a start. You get your MH , then progress to something higher etc.
ie; CD, CDX, UD, just replace the letters.

The hunt tests have come from " a waterdown field trial" to the game it is today. Even the breeding has changed, you now have MH back several generations, where previously the breedings were ALL field trial. So the pedigrees are even changing.

I hope the two sports NEVER come together! and I play both of them!

 

[AmiableLabs]

A MN title is spinning your wheels in place. Think about it, after you get your first MN pass, what do you do? Return to running Master again! And then after you get your MN title, what do you do? Return to running Master again! Absurd. The MN title is an "extension" of the MH title, but it is not a "step-up."

Running Qualifying is a step-up from the MH. You get longer marks, and on average the marks are conceptually just a touch more difficult.

I stand by the opinion that any dog that is good enough to be campaigned for the MN, is good enough to run the Q. Therefore the owners have a choice -- do I spin my wheels in place, or step-up to the next level?

 

[AmiableLabs]

Well Kevin,
There is no, "lacking of knowledge or comprehension of the thing specified" on my part. I got my First Retriever in 1954 and have been messing around with them ever since. On any given day I am involved with the training of 15/20 dogs for both HT and FT. On any given Month during the Local FT/ HT season I can and do run any and every stake in both AKC games From the Open and Amateur all the way down to the Junior Hunter.

And so your point is that it is even more shocking for you to make such an ignorant statement.

I repeat, on the most basic level the dog work is the same. The only difference is how they are played and to what end. That they are fundamentally the same, is the integral issue when considering if a dog can make the transition from one game to the other. Therefore the logic is not "fundamentally flawed" as you claimed, it is fundamentally valid.

 

[Bente]

QAA. Always aim higher.

I keep thinking of minor v major leagues. If you think you're really good and aren't satisfied w/ the challenge in HT's, move up to the majors (FT). I think you'd gain more knowledge there than staying in HT and doing a MHX.

 

[Steve Bean]

Wouldn't it make sense to say we already have the MHX...isn't that what the MN is? You take the creme, judge to the 'maximum' of the standard, and if you pass 3 times you got your MHX. HOw else could you play it? spin, spin, spin.

 

[Lisa Van Loo]

"Higher" is relative. Some aspects of the Qual are easier for a dog to grasp than the Master. Again, it depends on the dog.

Gopher's "logical" progression seems to be shaping up into SH-Qual-Master, in that order. All the "trappings" of Master tests seem to blow her mind. Remove a lot of the goings-on at the line, and her ability to focus and mark increases tenfold.

IT DEPENDS!

Lisa

 

[john fallon]

Kevin,
The difference between you and I on this and other matters, in addition to the validity of our respective points. Is unless I missed something . :?
I am a vocal member of AKC Member Club you are not.
I am on a career path within said club that will put Me at the AKC Mtgs with the Vote :wink:
You have yet to convince me that you have a valid position :!:
john

 

[Steve Bean]

Kevin, don't worry, I belong to a member club as well. Would you like to join?

 

[Misty Marsh]

I was training at a well respected Canadian national winning field trialers a few weeks ago and he believed that any "sound" MH could run QAA, but taking a QAA dog to a MH is a challenge. I'm glad that HT's existed for guys like me to get my "feet wet" first because FT's are not the place to do it! The logical progression is FT's and with that comes 1-2-3-4 placings with fewer ribbons, but that just means two thngs: 1) get used to losing, and 2) It will be that much more rewarding when a win occurs.

 

[subroc]

What is the next step up for a MH dog?

Hunting!!

You have measured your hunting dog against the standard, reached the top tier HT title. Mission accomplished. Take the dog hunting, no more testing or progression necessary.

Joe Miano