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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
This came up last week during a training session. I've heard two different definitions of primary selection. One is that it is the handler simply choosing the next bird for the dog after the go bird. The other is the handler choosing the bird order for the dog period. Anyway, in the training session, the very experienced trainer and trialer I was training with said the latter definition of primary selection could be of huge benefit in a series with retired guns. The reason being that if the handler so chose, he or she could "No," the dog off the go bird and send him instead for the retired gun thereby making it a stand out gun, at least for that bird. Since the judges cannot stipulate the order of the retrieves, it made me wonder why more handlers wouldn't do this. Any thoughts on this?
 

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First of all I personally would not "NO" the dog off a bird you want him to pick up later. Many dogs won't select unless consistently taught to, especially away from the flyer, or they could split the difference. Long time ago I had I had a dog that would naturally select out a short bird before it would retire in an indent triple, and later in a quad. I would encourage it by saying easy after my number was called and his head would move immediately to the bird. It only worked on short retired birds. Some people have rules that you must always primary select but I just used it as a tool that I know worked with him on those types of tests. I had another dog that was not quite as reliable and of course it had to do with the influence of the flyer.
 

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This might save some time in getting to the meat of this subject

http://www.retrievertraining.net/fo...-Non-Selection&p=728295&viewfull=1#post728295

Here is what I think..

http://www.retrievertraining.net/fo...-Non-Selection&p=728287&viewfull=1#post728287

Selection has nothing to do with anything but the Handler picking the order of the way the birds are picked up.

If the first bird to be picked up is the last bird down you have NOT "selected" at all

Selection by the handler of another bird than the last bird down to be picked up first is to me, Primary Selection, no matter the wind, sun angle, treelines, water suction, topography, retireds, etc etc...............

John
 

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Your dog better be pretty damm solid to pull off flyer and ship to an retired gun before they retire. I've done this twice once In complete failure and once in a monster hunt on retired gun that I sent for first. So that being said both failures. Not saying it won't work I've seen it tried and almost always nope
 

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Back in the 70ties when Rex began teaching dogs to select, it was done because most dogs could not go long for a flyer and check down for a short bird on the next retrieve. it takes a special dog to achieve selection status and as opponents, at the time suggested, a year out of the animals field trial life. Not exactly accurate but it did affect the dogs performance for awhile. in my opinion a dog would have to have years of selection under his belt to select a retired bird on a consistent basis. Jack Vollstead was the last trialer i know of who had reliable selection dogs and was able to select any bird with Ruff. it takes dedication, consistency and hard work on the handlers part to achieve selection status---it's not just the dog.
GG
 

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Discussion Starter · #6 ·
Your dog better be pretty damm solid to pull off flyer and ship to an retired gun before they retire. I've done this twice once In complete failure and once in a monster hunt on retired gun that I sent for first. So that being said both failures. Not saying it won't work I've seen it tried and almost always nope
That's the thing. Out of order flyers seem to be fairly common in major stakes. I saw an Open recently in which the last bird down in the fourth series was a dinky launched dead bird of about 50-60 yards, just enough for the guns to retire. The flyer was the second bird down and longest bird of the quad. Had a dog been able to primary select, I believe the first bird down, the one that gave dogs fits, may have been much more straight forward especially since those guns really could not have retired with the dog swimming right toward them and the guns in view the entire time. As it was, only four dogs out of 14 actually passed the test and only two did it without a handle with every one of the 14 dogs picking up the go bird first. Roughly half the dogs had to be picked up either by choice or judges' direction.

For Nancy (ErinsEdge), what is the difference between "No"ing a dog off of the go bird for purposes of primar selection and a poison bird blind? In both cases, aren't you just letting the dog know he'll get that bird just not right then?
 

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For Nancy (ErinsEdge), what is the difference between "No"ing a dog off of the go bird for purposes of primar selection and a poison bird blind? In both cases, aren't you just letting the dog know he'll get that bird just not right then?
In the poison bird example in FT they usually don't get to pick it up. My personal preference is not to say "No" on line unless I say "No bird" and mean it. That's how I was taught. In HT when they get the bird some people say "leave it" if they are going to get the bird later. It's difficult enough to do the primary selecting and pick up all the birds without throwing a "NO" in there.
 

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Another thought every once if awhile you get your hands on a excellent marker in training seems to smack most tests. I have been cursed/blessed with a few (they know where everything is at or think they do) in training situations. To keep the training alive have gone to primary selection as a "training tool" but have not taken it to a trial situation ,unless it is the bird they want at a trial, don't go in a training mode just get the bird. After all at a trial you are trying to stay in!
 

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Selection decisions usually revolve around dogs over running short to mid distance retired guns. (or a dogs out of balance training). At a trial if everyone in front of you is crashing, burning and cussing on an impossible test, well you're probably gonna try something considered unconventional like primary selection. Then the trick becomes sorting out when and what to actually select (we're talking quads usually). I's is a good idea to train on picking up in any order, but do so infrequently.
 

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Primary selection= selecting a bird other than the last bird down.
Secondary selection= selecting a bird after the go bird is retrieved.

Not very many active trialers primary select but quite a few including myself secondary select. Secondary selection is a must have tool for me and my dogs. Even if you never secondary select in a trial, it makes a better dog.
 

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The pitfalls of secondary selection at a trial are,...if the dog misses the mark there initial hunt or initial hook is towards the bird they wanted and most likely behind the gun, or they simply split the difference of the mark you wanted and the one they wanted and end up in the parking lot of another stake. The dog says "yeah ok fine I'll go get that one,...while Im thinking about this one"
 
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