[Latisha]

I have a totally hypothetical question, but one I have been curious to see how it would be answered by the RTF'ers. Say you and you buddy got littermates from a great litter - parents proven producers, etc. One can assume the breeder has done their best to socialize and maximize the potential of the pups. You and your bud get together often to train and compare notes on how the pups are doing. The pups are still young, 3-4 months, so only fun stuff so far and no formal training.

Pup A is doing great. He/she is all about the retrieve. They are running in as hard as they run out and already delivering to hand. The pup is young, but already the "bring it back so they can get another" message has caught on. You keep sessions down to a few retrieves, but you know this pup could easily go 10 throws and still want more if you tried it. The pup can't get enough of the bumpers, balls, toys or anything else you throw, but when you bring the birds out, they don't seem as eager. The pup races out as fast as ever, but when it gets to the birds, it sniffs and paws at it like it is not sure what to do. The pup comes back empty handed.

Pup B is doing great also. He/she enjoys retrieving but you know you have to keep sessions down to 2-3 throws at most so they don't lose interest. This pup runs out hard, but returns more slowly, and you keep that long line handy because sometimes they get distracted or like to run off with the prize. Your pup has a tendency to drop the bumper on the way back. When Pup B gets around Pup A, Pup A beats him to the bumper every time. However, when the birds come out, Pup B seems to come out of their shell. They go nuts wanting to smell the bird and try to jump up and bite at the feathers. When you toss the bird for them, they beat Pup A to make sure they get there first. They drag the bird off and lay down to play with it. With a little encouragement, they will pick it and start to bring it towards you a ways before dropping it.

So, knowing these are both young pups, showing a lot of puppy behaviors that will get better over time and with training, and assuming all else is equal (marking, water ability, etc) - which pup would you be most encouraged by? Pup A, the pup with the stronger natural retrieving instinct, or Pup B, the birdier of the two?

Or, would you say neither is worth the time and wash them both out, then put a deposit on Pup C that will hopefully deliver birds to hand at 3 months?

Latisha

 

[Targander]

I voted for pup A.

Sounds like the only thing this pup would need is more exposure to birds :wink:

 

[Howard N]

Latisha, they're babies. Both are doing well! Can I vote when they're 3 or 4 years old instead of 3 or 4 months? If I had to chose one right now I'd probably take A as his birdiness will come on. BUT I could be waaaaay wrong.

PS. I didn't vote

 

[Trevor Toberny]

pup A for me.

 

[Jason Ferris]

Me too. Give pup A a couple of months and a nice gentle introduction to feather and I bet he/she would be charging out for the birds.

Regards, Jason.

 

[pupaloo]

Pup B for me-I'm after a hunting dog first, test dog as a bonus. You can improve delivery and all that with training-but I want the pup on fire for birds.

 

[mcderrylabs]

pupa or B

Pup B for me

 

[ErinsEdge]

I've had both kinds and some turned out fine and some didn't make it. They are puppies. I wouldn't make any judgments. Look at the breeding and sex. Big males can be slower. In fact, the two best dogs I have ever had fell into both of those categories at 4 months. If I was comparing them to littermates I would have washed them. Some of the worst dogs I have had seemed precocious but they had poor work ethic or were not team players. It's a crapshoot and it also takes a good trainer. I didn't vote.

 

[jimandkristine]

Pup B for me I want a naturaly birdie dog that I can train rather then a a well behaved dog that I have to train to go nuts for birds. I look for a pup that demands my attention and has natural talent. This has worked great for us so far.

 

[ducksoup]

Didn't vote -- either or A/B could become next superstar FC -- too early to tell anything definitive

 

[Eric Johnson]

Way too early to tell. The pups haven't even been through teething yet.

Eric

 

[Bubba]

It depends (LVL 2003).

Are we talking dawgs or some of them New Sealand Duck Tossing Rascals?

Inquiring minds regards

Bubba

 

[Guest]

a or b

Pup A

 

[SueLab]

The traits that you mention are those traits that should appear from any well bred field litter.

I didn't vote because I would like to know more about how they relate to their owners, do they remember little things around the house, do they want to please, and how easy were they to do housebreaking and other basic obedience skills. Basically, do they work for themselves or are they trying to please their owner. I think those traits come out early if you look for them.

 

[TxFig]

The pups are still young, 3-4 months, so only fun stuff so far and no formal training.

I answered B because of the age - by 3-4 months I want to see a pup show interest in the birds. The loss of interest by A would be a concern to me.

Now if you had said 6 weeks, I would have gone with A.


Fwiw, I think you wouldn't see A if the pup had been introduced to birds earlier - MUCH earlier.

 

[Guest]

99.99%, pup A will love birds equally as much at some point in time...

Maybe pup B will end up with mouthing and handling problems because it's literally crazy for birds. Maybe pup B will be hard to control in the presence of a flyer...

You CANNOT tell these things now.

Neither will bother me, but I'll say this... I've seen plenty of dogs, much older similar to Dog A that are, within a short period of time, crazy about birds.

Neither behavior would make me want one over the other... I'd want more to go by. If all else was equal as far as temperament... They'd be even at this stage of the game.

I would want the one that was most brave, inquisitive, responsive, adaptable, "comfortable" (first thing that comes to mind for this is a pupy that doesn't scream in a crate), persevering and sweet.... when the two were compared to one another on those terms. THOSE characteristics would be important as long as they both loved to retrieve. You need the desire first, but it's the characteristics I mentioned that make a great training and companion dog. Personally... I've come to like a combination of calm thoughtfulness (as much as you can get in a puppy) and desire.

-K

 

[David Maddox]

I own a FC/AFC Crow River's Cougar's Mad Max pup that showed little or no interest in birds, until about age 4 months. I even took him out to bird coops and crates...NOTHING!!! Next thing I know, he is sitting at the sliding glass door whining and watching birds fly by. He literall chases birds across the pasture near my home. He loves birds and is VERY birdy, but very sensible when it comes to them. He would sit under a duck coop for 24/7 if you'd let him.

 

[Latisha]

Just catching up, go away for a week and I get dumped all the way to the 5th page. Must be all that GDG going on. :lol: Thanks to those that responded to the question. I find it interesting that the results are darn near split in half. (60/40 for Pup A)

To clarify a few things: The pups in question are hypothetical, the question is not just for New Zealand Lamb Tossing Collies, or any other breed. I used 3-4 months as a time frame because my interest is in inherited natural traits, not trained ones. Much past that time, you get into teething, and then serious training begins which can mask or enhance the traits that are there.

So, to simplify the scenario, say you have two pups, or even young dogs - Pup A has more natural retrieve drive, the type where the retrieve itself is an inherent reward. This pup likes birds but would be just as happy retrieving anything as long as it got to keep playing the game. Pup B has a stronger bird drive, it likes to retrieve, but you can tell the bird is its inherent reward. This pup really only retrieves to get to the bird.

Both types are good dogs and show promise, but as they have different strengths, I would think they would be trained with a slightly different approach. Which type would you prefer?

And yes, I think we all want Pup C that is mad about retrieving and birdy as heck, but that is not an option.

Latisha

 

[FOM]

I'd take the one that was not only interested in the whole retrieve thing, but also me. I want a dog that thinks I'm its whole life, it wants to please me, not itself. So which one is always following you around wanting to be with you?

FOM

 

[Bubba]

New Zealand Lamb Tossing Collies

HAHAhahahahahahha

Can I use that?

Still chuckling regards

Bubba