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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
On the "This is amazing" thread, you wrote the statement below. I'm including the first paragraph to add context. My question lies with second paragraph:

So while I don't frequently use overs en route to the blind (but probably with some frequency at the very end when the dog may be even but isn't winding it), I surely don't think you can rule them out entirely.

And I don't think as a judge (I'm not one, but responding anyhoo) you have any right to look at what your handler is casting. Your sole responsibility is to see that on each cast, the dog makes more progress to the blind.
Could you please explain what you meant by this statement, particularly the parts in red?

Thanks in advance.

kg
 
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K G said:
On the "This is amazing" thread, you wrote the statement below. I'm including the first paragraph to add context. My question lies with second paragraph:

So while I don't frequently use overs en route to the blind (but probably with some frequency at the very end when the dog may be even but isn't winding it), I surely don't think you can rule them out entirely.

And I don't think as a judge (I'm not one, but responding anyhoo) you have any right to look at what your handler is casting. Your sole responsibility is to see that on each cast, the dog makes more progress to the blind.
Could you please explain what you meant by this statement, particularly the parts in red?

Thanks in advance.

kg
it doesn't matter what cast the handler gives as long as the dog is making progress to the blind. the dogs response and progress to the blind is the only thing being judged (or that should be judged), not whether it's a left back, right angle back, over or whatever other cast the handler is using to get that progress. it's about progress to the blind, not looking at where the handler's arm is and seeing if the dog took what YOU think THAT cast should be. it's about you, as a judge, watching the dog's progress to the blind.

-K
 

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Discussion Starter · #3 ·
it doesn't matter what cast the handler gives as long as the dog is making progress to the blind. the dogs response and progress to the blind is the only thing being judged (or that should be judged), not whether it's a left back, right angle back, over or whatever other cast the handler is using to get that progress. it's about progress to the blind, not looking at where the handler's arm is and seeing if the dog took what YOU think THAT cast should be. it's about you, as a judge, watching the dog's progress to the blind.
Question #1: the dogs response...So if the dog gives you a cast refusal I shouldn't care what cast you gave that the dog refused?

Question #2: or whatever other cast the handler is using to get that progress...But what if the dog doesn't "progress?" I should only write that it was a cast refusal?

Question #3: not looking at where the handler's arm is and seeing if the dog took what YOU think THAT cast should be...If I'm in the proper position to score the blind, I can see both what cast you gave and which way the dog turned/if it took the cast. If I am going to do my AKC-mandated duty to score your dog fairly, you can rest assured that not only am I going to write what cast you gave (using a code I've developed over the years), I'm going to show whether the dog took it or not. As a judge, it's my SIGNED and AFFIRMED responsibility to judge that dog by the regs/guidelines and I have found that after looking at a bunch of dogs run a blind, the more notes I make, the more likely I am to fairly justify my scores to myself and my co-judge and the score the dogs work correctly.

If you had done any judging, you'd know that while you are not required to justify or explain your scoring when a handler asks to see their sheets after the test, you can shut them up in a hurry when they want to argue with you about cast refusals and how they only had three when your notes show that had 6 in a ROW and what cast they gave versus which way the dog moved. :wink:

By the way, the term "progess to the blind/bird" is not used in the AKC regs/guidelines relative to scoring blinds. It's a popular term and one that makes total sense, but the regs/guidelines give it no credence.

kg
 
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K G said:
it doesn't matter what cast the handler gives as long as the dog is making progress to the blind. the dogs response and progress to the blind is the only thing being judged (or that should be judged), not whether it's a left back, right angle back, over or whatever other cast the handler is using to get that progress. it's about progress to the blind, not looking at where the handler's arm is and seeing if the dog took what YOU think THAT cast should be. it's about you, as a judge, watching the dog's progress to the blind.
Question #1: the dogs response...So if the dog gives you a cast refusal I shouldn't care what cast you gave that the dog refused?

Question #2: or whatever other cast the handler is using to get that progress...But what if the dog doesn't "progress?" I should only write that it was a cast refusal?

Question #3: not looking at where the handler's arm is and seeing if the dog took what YOU think THAT cast should be...If I'm in the proper position to score the blind, I can see both what cast you gave and which way the dog turned. If I am going to do my AKC-mandated duty to score your dog fairly, you can rest assured that not only am I going to write what cast you gave (using a code I've developed over the years), I'm going to show whether the dog took it or not. As a judge, it's my SIGNED and AFFIRMED responsibility to judge that dog by the regs/guidelines and I have found that after looking at a bunch of dogs run a blind, the more notes I make, the more likely I am to fairly justify my scores to myself and my co-judge and the score the dogs work correctly.

If you had done any judging, you'd know that while you are not required to justify or explain your scoring when a handler asks to see their sheets after the test, you can shut them up in a hurry when they want to argue with you about cast refusals and how they only had three when your notes show that had 6 in a ROW and what cast they gave versus which way the dog moved. :wink:

By the way, the term "progess to the blind/bird" is not used in the AKC regs/guidelines relative to scoring blinds. It's a popular term and one that makes total sense, but the regs/guidelines give it no credence.

kg
Question number one: Yes, because only the direction and progress of the dog, not the arm motion of the handler, indicates whether the dog is making progress to the blind

Number two: Yes, if dog doesn't progress, then it's a refusal. If and when I judge there is one thing I will take into account in addition to the fact that "non-progress" to the blind is a cast refusal... That's "navigation of obstacles" like logs/impassable cover/etc. So if dog has to make it's way around something impassable (typically in a stick pond), I wouldn't score a right turn to get by a giant cypress tree a cast refusal.

Number three: Where does the rulebook say that you compare the handler's arm to the cast the dog takes? (I'm talking only AKC hunt tests because I'm not as familiar with AKC rulebook). Where on earth does it say that? And who are you, as a judge, to interpret what someone else's cast means? And, beyond that, what difference does the cast make in anything you would ever judge? I would be wasting my time with some "davinci code" for handler casting. All you need to do is look at the dog -- see if it stops when handler whistles, see if it makes progress to the blind when it takes off...

So riddle me this... If a dog autocasts IN YOUR OPINION, with the handler having done WHAT YOU HAVE ASSUMED (according to your "code") IS NOTHING, are you going to score that as a control issue? And how do YOU score a no-hands back?

It's just a waste of time. All you need to do is draw circles and lines to connect them and see if each connection indicated progress to the blind.

I would be curious to hear ways in which your "code" has affected a handler and dog team to their detriment?

-K
 

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Well I feel a little bit better now.

I had already made a note to myself that in the future I would have to ignore a single whistle blast by the handler and score it as a POP if the dog sat because that would be an assumption on my part that the dog was trained to sit on a whistle. One musn't do that.

Jerry
 
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When you boys have time, and Keith I'm actually surprised, open the pdf version of the rulebook (FOR HUNT TESTS) and search on and find where it says ANY single thing about taking into account the ARM DIRECTION of the handler's cast in scoring a dog's progress to the blind. I searched on both ARM and CAST. Arm had zero reponses. Cast had quite a few, but most deal with the original send of a dog on a mark or a re-cast. And a few dealt with cast refusals... BUT none of the ones associated with cast refusals made any note of comparing the handler's cast with the direction the dog takes.

Moreover... For Jerry, who I think doesn't have too much experience in hunt tests but I'm not sure, search on WHISTLE and there are lots of real clear examples on how to score whistle refusals, a dog's response to a WHISTLE and the like.
 

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So lets say I train my dogs to take a left back by giving a left over and saying back and my left overs are actually saying "left" while waving my left arm. It sure is different than most but if it gets the dog to the blind and the dog stays on line and challenges the factors, who cares what I look like?
 

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Got to agree with Kristie.
Example: Take that pro in Oklahoma who gives his dogs verbal "left"s and "right"s. If he didn't use his hands, are you going to grade him down for the dog going left towards the bird if the guy shouts right? How do you know if its the handler's right or the dog's? As illogical as it may seem, the same thing could apply with a cast. If I'm only listening to whistles then watching the dog's progress to the blind, and he handles to the blind as if he were riding a RR track, why should I care what hand signals the handler used? He got the job done.
 
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achiro said:
So lets say I train my dogs to take a left back by giving a left over and saying back and my left overs are actually saying "left" while waving my left arm. It sure is different than most but if it gets the dog to the blind and the dog stays on line and challenges the factors, who cares what I look like?
Amen my brother... I'm going to start doing bassackwards casting and go run under Keith and Jerry just for kicks to see how they'd fail my dog even if he ran a really nice straight line with good sits and casts towards the blind.

Where do you fault the dog in the scoring system? I can't find it in the rulebook nor figure out how you could possibly do it... EXCEPT if Keith and Jerry would score my dog a 0 in trainability for not taking bassackwards casts that, if taken traditionally, would have the dog all over the field.

This is an extreme example, but the easiest way to show why it doesn't work to pay any attention to the handler.
 

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Discussion Starter · #10 ·
It's just a waste of time. All you need to do is draw circles and lines to connect them and see if each connection indicated progress to the blind.
When you decide to sit in the chair, you can draw circles and lines to connect them. The AKC tells us to score numerically; how we get to those numbers is up to us.

I would be curious to hear ways in which your "code" has affected a handler and dog team to their detriment?
I score what I see, not what I think. If you give a silent right angle back (SRAB....pretty complicated, davinci-code stuff, huh.... :? ), and the dog breaks left, I add a CR and keep drawing. If the dog takes the cast, the drawing tells the story. The best part is that I can tell EXACTLY what the dog did from start to finish. Is that a BAD thing?????

Where does the rulebook say that you compare the handler's arm to the cast the dog takes? Where on earth does it say that? And who are you, as a judge, to interpret what someone else's cast means? And, beyond that, what difference does the cast make in anything you would ever judge?
When you give a cast, are you trying to communicate with the dog? Are you trying to change the dog's direction when you blow a whistle and then give a cast? What DIFFERENCE does it make??? ALL THE DIFFERENCE IN THE WORLD when it comes to scoring the blind! The regs/guidelines say I have to score what I see...what I see is a handler attempting to communicate with the dog. If I don't write down what I see (casts AND what the dog does), after watching a bunch of dogs, some of those drawings will look like someone went crazy with an Etch-A-Sketch! My job is to score your dog FAIRLY! I draw what I see and I want to know what I meant when I wrote something down.

So riddle me this... If a dog autocasts IN YOUR OPINION, with the handler having done WHAT YOU HAVE ASSUMED (according to your "code") IS NOTHING, are you going to score that as a control issue? And how do YOU score a no-hands back?
If a dog starts to move before a cast is given, I write that down. Period. If you DO nothing as a handler, then I don't have anything to write down, do I? :roll: When the next whistle blows, I write that down, too. I write stuff down when I judge. I'll score it relative to how the dog moves. Sometimes the dog goes the right way...sometimes it doesn't. That happens when dogs don't wait for casts....and a no hands back is a NHB. :wink: It's an incredible cast when it works!

At the end of the day, the job is to get the blind in a pleasing manner. If you've done that, why do you give a whit how I score you as long as I write down what I see? If you are talented enough to backasswards handle your dog to a clean blind, you have at it. You'll get a passing score.

Feel better? :wink:

kg
 

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I recently went and trained with a pro. When I blew whistle for dog to come in he asked me why she didn't sit. He told me my come in whistle is most peoples sit whistle. How would you judge that? Would you THINK I had blown for her to sit and she came in instead? Knowing my backwardness it's a wonder I didn't teach my dog to go back left when I used right hand backcast. I'm new to the hunt test game but it seems to me as long as the dog went towards the blind then it was OK. I read almost every training thead on here and it has helped alot but some subjects are clear as mud.
 

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Discussion Starter · #13 ·
This is an extreme example, but the easiest way to show why it doesn't work to pay any attention to the handler.
Easiest way for you to justify it, you mean. :wink: Nonsensical examples and searches of the AKC rulebook are great diversions when trying to talk about words used and unused.

Sit in the chair, Kristie. Give yourself the perspective before you pass judgement on how it's done.

kg
 

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I think that what she is trying to say, is that if you know your dog is going to want to run a certain direction, you cast it in a slighly different direction knowing that your dog will probably come out somewhere in between.

In this instance the judge shouldn't strike you for knowing your dog and giving the appropriate cast to get your dog to the blind.

An example:
You are getting ready to give your dog a cast. He needs to run a right angled back. You know that the dog is going to want to run a straight right over, so you give him a straight back cast knowing that he will probably come out somewhere in between a straight back and a straight over.

Hunter
 
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K G said:
(snip)

I score what I see, not what I think. If you give a silent right angle back (SRAB....pretty complicated, davinci-code stuff, huh.... :? ), and the dog breaks left, I add a CR and keep drawing. If the dog takes the cast, the drawing tells the story. The best part is that I can tell EXACTLY what the dog did from start to finish. Is that a BAD thing?????
YES, it's TERRIBLE. Because if the dog breaks LEFT, but turns hard and makes progress to the blind, the dog shouldn't be scored down. MOREOVER, if the dog breaks left and does NOT make progress to the blind, then it's a cast refusal REGARDLESS of which cast the handler gave.

You said: "(using a code I've developed over the years)" = must not be so simple, which is why I nicknamed it.

K G said:
When you give a cast, are you trying to communicate with the dog? Are you trying to change the dog's direction when you blow a whistle and then give a cast? What DIFFERENCE does it make??? ALL THE DIFFERENCE IN THE WORLD when it comes to scoring the blind! The regs/guidelines say I have to score what I see...what I see is a handler attempting to communicate with the dog. If I don't write down what I see (casts AND what the dog does), after watching a bunch of dogs, some of those drawings will look like someone went crazy with an Etch-A-Sketch! My job is to score your dog FAIRLY! I draw what I see and I want to know what I meant when I wrote something down.
Once again, I ask you to show me where in the rulebook there are any guidelines, recommendations, suggestions, or otherwise pertaining to using the handler's actions to JUDGE a dog's PROGRESS to the blind. It's not up to you to make up your own scoring system. The rulebook appears quite clear on how to score blinds and it says nothing about handler's casts. It DOES address cast refusals, whistle refusals and "progress to the blind". But it never once addresses anything to do with the manner the handler uses to get his dog to the destination.

And, once again, I ask you to give me some examples where your davinci code has been to the detriment of the handler... it sounds like you would score a the left-back scenario you gave above as a cast refusal EVEN IF the dog made progress to the blind, SIMPLY BECAUSE the dog didn't turn over the proper shoulder and that is UNFAIR.

I believe you know Cole Fertic, he casts with ONE ARM. How are you going to score him?
-K
 
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K G said:
This is an extreme example, but the easiest way to show why it doesn't work to pay any attention to the handler.
Easiest way for you to justify it, you mean. :wink: Nonsensical examples and searches of the AKC rulebook are great diversions when trying to talk about words used and unused.

Sit in the chair, Kristie. Give yourself the perspective before you pass judgement on how it's done.

kg
now that joie's out of school and I'm cutting back i will be. I think being a contestant for 10 years does give me enough credibility to know the rules. Spare me.
 

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Discussion Starter · #17 ·
...the judge shouldn't strike you for knowing your dog and giving the appropriate cast to get your dog to the blind.
I don't know one that would. I wouldn't. Answer the whistles. Carry the casts. If a 45 degree cast gets you the needed 60 degree correction, that will be duly noted and would hardly be considered to be a cast refusal.

Write down what you see and move on. If the dog makes progress to the bird, good for you. If it doesn't, at least I have reference point.

Apparently, some handlers are uncomfortable with that.

I think being a contestant for 10 years does give me enough credibility to know the rules. Spare me.
Teaching the judges/handlers seminar for two years, making two master hunters, and judging since the inception of the program over 20 years ago does the same for me. :wink:

kg
 

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I've never met him but would I be correct in assuming he points in the direction he wants his dogs to go?

Jerry
 
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labman63 said:
I recently went and trained with a pro. When I blew whistle for dog to come in he asked me why she didn't sit. He told me my come in whistle is most peoples sit whistle. How would you judge that? Would you THINK I had blown for her to sit and she came in instead? Knowing my backwardness it's a wonder I didn't teach my dog to go back left when I used right hand backcast. I'm new to the hunt test game but it seems to me as long as the dog went towards the blind then it was OK. I read almost every training thead on here and it has helped alot but some subjects are clear as mud.
Well labman, I suggest you watch these boards closely and make a note of the people who will penalize you for how you choose to run a NICE blind with your dog... make notes so you don't get screwed on the weekend. It's just an example of unfairness in judging. Keith might have all kinds of negative notes about you and your dog. I'm still trying to figure out how he could penalize you, but he hasn't answered that yet... If a dog runs a nice blind, they run a nice blind. PERIOD.

Enjoy the hunt test game. Most judges are fair and reasonable. LOL

And, as I said that, I should also say that I've known and run under Keith for 10 years now and I've NEVER felt he's been unfair. I'm actually really surprised at his scoring system, though.
 

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K G said:
If a 45 degree cast gets you the needed 60 degree correction, that will be duly noted and would hardly be considered to be a cast refusal.kg
DING DING DING DING DING DING after several pages in my thread and several other threads popping up on the subject, SOMEONE FINALLY ANSWERED MY QUESTION!!!!!! :wink:
 
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