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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
If a handler quietly gently and totally uneventful inspired his dog to make eye contact while taking the last bird from a multiple would that be considered intimidation.
Thanks in advance

Pete
 

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I'm none of what you described but I certainly would hope not. Unless he gave the dog a death stare for an extended period of time.
 

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That "freezing" problem is a booger isn't it................
HT judge and no, I don't care. Good Luck :)
 

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Hrc Hunt Test judge. As long as eye contact is all that is required, I have no problem with it.
 

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2 things:

Pete:

First, I'm inclined as someone who's done HT for many years and FT I'm really just starting, to generally say "no".

But I guess in my mind's eye, I can possibly see a scenario where someone could describe a "maybe" or even a "yes" situation with your written word choices. I'd say it needs to be a situation that you'd have to experience in person to judge.

Second, I know you've written several times that you are having issues with your writing a lot of stuff and then it disappears with the new format. I just had the same thing happen to me, and it was operator error.

I want to suggest some steps. When you do a reply, please do the following: 1) click either "reply" or "reply with quote". Then click "go advanced". Then fill in the subject box and your text. Then scroll down to the bottom and hit the submit button.

I bet this clears it up and allows you to type your full thoughts.

Please try it.

Thanks, Chris
 

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If a handler quietly gently and totally uneventful inspired his dog to make eye contact while taking the last bird from a multiple would that be considered intimidation.
Thanks in advance

Pete
For starters, the FT Rule book does not have the word intimidation in it I believe. The HT Rule book does. However, both books disallow threatening gestures. So my question is how did the handler "inspire" his dog to make eye contact. If it was though the use of a threatening gesture, it's a no-no. If it's through any other quiet, gentle, uneventful means, it's good handling. Good luck getting the bird though!
 

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To me looking the dog in the eye is by itself not a big deal. Now if you are lifting the bird up so the dog has to look you in the eye...for a prolonged peiod of time I would have to think about what is going on. In any event I would not consider it "intimidation". FT judge

Bill
 

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Intimidation and threatening gestures many times are about interpretation . They are as much about the dog's reaction as the handler's action. To make the call on the original question I would have to see the dog's reaction.

Tim
 

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If a handler quietly gently and totally uneventful inspired his dog to make eye contact while taking the last bird from a multiple would that be considered intimidation.
Thanks in advance

Pete
Help us out to get a minds eye view of this.
In 25 words or less what did the handler do that was so inspiring?


john
 

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Just to have it in front of you...

Retriever HT Rule"Note* While speaking quietly to the honoring dog is allowed, threatening gestures or any form of intimidation is not acceptable and shall not be allowed by the Judges."

Serious Handler Faults:
9. Threatening Gestures - or any form of intimidation made to the dog.

Retriever FT Rule
"25. No handler shall (1) carry exposed any training equipment (except whistle) or use any other equipment or threatening gestures in such a manner that they may be an aid or threat in steadying or controlling a dog;"

"During the period from the moment when the handler signals readiness for the birds to be thrown until the dog’s number is called, the handler of the working or honoring dog shall remain silent. Also, in all marking tests during such period, the handler’s hands shall remain quietly in close proximity to his body. A handler who projects his hand during such period, whether for the purpose of assisting his dog to locate a fall or otherwise, should be considered to have used a threatening gesture, and his dog penalized accordingly."

Merriam-Webster
Intimidate-: to make timid or fearful : frighten; especially : to compel or deter by or as if by threats.
gesture-: a movement usually of the body or limbs that expresses or emphasizes an idea, sentiment, or attitude


So...
You can't make a gesture with your eyes.

And I don't like the wording of the HT rule as relates to "any form of intimidation". We've all seen dogs come to the line with their tail between their legs. Are these dogs not intimidated?

edit: Also, anybody seen the Dave Rorem "Art & Science of Handling..." DVD? He says point blank he is trying to intimidate the dog.
 

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Just to have it in front of you...

Retriever HT Rule"Note* While speaking quietly to the honoring dog is allowed, threatening gestures or any form of intimidation is not acceptable and shall not be allowed by the Judges."

Serious Handler Faults:
9. Threatening Gestures - or any form of intimidation made to the dog.

Retriever FT Rule
"25. No handler shall (1) carry exposed any training equipment (except whistle) or use any other equipment or threatening gestures in such a manner that they may be an aid or threat in steadying or controlling a dog;"

"During the period from the moment when the handler signals readiness for the birds to be thrown until the dog’s number is called, the handler of the working or honoring dog shall remain silent. Also, in all marking tests during such period, the handler’s hands shall remain quietly in close proximity to his body. A handler who projects his hand during such period, whether for the purpose of assisting his dog to locate a fall or otherwise, should be considered to have used a threatening gesture, and his dog penalized accordingly."

Merriam-Webster
Intimidate-: to make timid or fearful : frighten; especially : to compel or deter by or as if by threats.
gesture-: a movement usually of the body or limbs that expresses or emphasizes an idea, sentiment, or attitude


So...
You can't make a gesture with your eyes.

And I don't like the wording of the HT rule as relates to "any form of intimidation". We've all seen dogs come to the line with their tail between their legs. Are these dogs not intimidated?

edit: Also, anybody seen the Dave Rorem "Art & Science of Handling..." DVD? He says point blank he is trying to intimidate the dog.
witnessed at a hunt test: dog was really giving the handler the ol' dew claw.........

Judge: "you can't do that. that's intimidation!!"

Exasperated handler: "does that dog look intimidated to you?"

the entire gallery, judges and the handler broke out in laughter!

another time, i heard a handler say to the the judges that he wasn't intimidating the dog , but that he HOPED to someday! thought that was pretty funny, too!

to the O.P.- i don't see how what you described could constitute intimidation given the regulations we work within.

to my fellow judges- i would urge you to drop dogs slinking around for excessively poor style rather try to justify elimination citing intimidation by the handler. just look at the dog. who knows, you might just affect that persons training methods in a positive way. more importantly, though, you won't be rewarding that type of training.

i've been judging about 20 years now, mostly HT, but have also judged 6 minor stakes, so i guess i'm somewhat experienced.-Paul
 

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Since the word "intimidation" is nowhere to be found in Field Trial Rules And Standard Procedures For Retrievers this topic applies to Hunt Test Rules only where the word "intimidation" can be found.
 

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Can someone point me to the page in the HT guide where the word "intimidation" is found? I just pulled the latest and greatest from the web page and a search does not find it....:)

/Paul
 

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Here's one place under Serious Handler Faults:

Threatening Gestures - or any form of intimidation made to the dog.
 

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Actually I did find it,

Page 58 - Serious faults - 9. Threatening Gestures - or any form of intimidation made to the dog.
Page 25 - Note* While speaking quietly to the honoring dog is allowed, threatening gestures or any form of intimidation is not acceptable and shall not be allowed by the Judges.

Guess they've added this in the last few versions. Either way, looking at your dog is not in my mind intimidation. Leaning over him, stepping into him, verbal could be construed as a threatening gesture but looking at him would not in my book be cause to drop the handler.

/Paul
 

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Ed , would give some explanation or reason for this statement being in the FT rule book ....?
Retriever FT Rule
"25. No handler shall (1) carry exposed any training equipment (except whistle) or use any other equipment or threatening gestures in such a manner that they may be an aid or threat in steadying or controlling a dog;"

I believe the implication is there that threatening gestures ,intimidate or make fearful for the purpose of controlling the animal.... semantics.... deliver that bird or else......Steve S

Steve S
 

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Discussion Starter · #17 · (Edited)
It would be just like a handler patting his leg to pull the dog on a blind retrieve or say here softly or whatever. Like I said in my original post. gentle quiet no different than a handler doing anything else,,,only its done on receiving the last bird or all birds of a multiple of a multiple, and it would be to influence the dog to make eye contact.

I used the word intimidation because most judges use it. I have never seen a handler able to intimidate a dog at a test or trial. I guess a beter word would be unnecessary influence. I appreciate all your input.
Pete
 

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I always felt like if I had to look too hard, then I was looking too hard.
 

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Let's not get confused. There are acceptable gestures & there are gestures that could threaten. All gestures are NOT threathening but are subject to a judges interpretation. To command a dog to "sit" is generally not considered threathening but could be to some judges if they interpret the tone as threathening. When my dogs return with a bird, I command "sit" as a routine. I've never had a judge consider that command threathening. I also command "drop" or "leave it" at times if one of my dog's has a special attraction to a bird that it has retrieved. In the normal course of running my dogs over the years, I've only had 1-2 judges ask me to use a calmer tone, but have never been penalized to my knowledge. As for eye contact, I can't imagine it being considered initimidating unless a handler stoops down & gets right in the face of the dog. Even then I'm not sure I would consider it intimidation. I'd have to see it happen to offer an opinion. And I have to add, among my 5 dogs at one extreme, blowing a whistle is intimidating to her & at the other extreme probably whacking another dog with a 2x4 would not be intimidating. So intimidation to some extent is in the opinion of the judges and a judges opinion will ususally be determined by what is generally acceptable & practiced by those who play our games as a whole.

As a judge, I'm more interested in whether a dog will deliver the bird to hand in a non-damaging manner & do so in an efficient, quick, momentary way - and within the letter of the rules. And for those who have sticky dogs, I've found when I have such a dog, it's a very effective tool to have that dog consistently associate an acceptable command with giving up the bird. I have only one such dog now, but to him "sit" means a whole lot more than putting his butt on the ground. I think that's the best way to train and handle a dog that is sticky.
 

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Here is one that might be coming sooner than you think
Note* While when running a blind retrieve handling on a poison bird, on or off point, off the shore line ,on a tight angle entry or through a keyhole is allowed ,threatening gestures or any form of intimidation using your voice , whistle, or gestures is not acceptable and shall not be allowed by the Judges


Does anyone think that a dog can be handled of of a posion bird without having been intimadated

john
 
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