[Franco]

I've seen repeat breedings where the entire litter ended up being washed out. Breedings where the first litter produced several early AFC's and some FC's. So, in my book, repeat breedings don't always mean that they will be the same quality pups.

Would you venture to say that repeat breedings are very or somewhat unpredictable? I know NFC Chopper was from a repeat breeding, with two AA titled dogs being a result of those two breedings.

Are repeat breedings even worth looking at in regards of increasing one's chances of getting a potential superstar?

Not that I'm looking for a pup, just that I got into this converstaion recently.

 

[Angie B]

I've seen repeat breedings where the entire litter ended up being washed out. Breedings where the first litter produced several early AFC's and some FC's. So, in my book, repeat breedings don't always mean that they will be the same quality pups.

Would you venture to say that repeat breedings are very or somewhat unpredictable? I know NFC Chopper was from a repeat breeding, with two AA titled dogs being a result of those two breedings.

Are repeat breedings even worth looking at in regards of increasing one's chances of getting a potential superstar?

Not that I'm looking for a pup, just that I got into this converstaion recently.

Yes,,,, Give me a repeat anyday. When making a purchase I like all the information I can get.

Angie

 

[Ken Archer]

Booty, I think some of the difference you may be seeing between the first and repeat litters is that the A-list trainers and owners get the first litter and the B-List get the repeats.

 

[Ted Shih]

I got a puppy from the first breeding of Code Blue and Lean Cuisine. I loved her (Mootsie). I got a puppy from the second breeding of Code Blue and Lean Cuisine. I loved him (Mozzie). If they had bred Kweezy to Code Blue again, I would have gotten a third puppy.

I got a puppy from the first breeding of Chopper and Maggie McBunn. That puppy, Va Va, is less than a year old, but I love her. I saw the breeders, Frank Baird and Mike Cicero, at the Rockport Trial and already put in a reservation for another puppy when they repeat the breeding (one to two years away)

I like repeat breedings.

I also think Ken's hypothesis is wrong. The repeat of a proven breeding is likely to attract more, not less proven competitors.

 

[ErinsEdge]

It's a phenomenon that can't be predicted but it does happen sometimes-one litter is better than the other. Sometimes it's due to where the puppy goes but sometimes it just doesn't. Sometimes bitches are better than studs in the litter or vice-versa. On the other hand, sometimes the repeat is better. It's always a crapshoot, but a repeat stacks the odds in your favor over the unknown. I have great respect for repeats or good bitches that have produced from multiple sires.

 

[pistol]

ken, your theory is wrong. you must also remember that lots of a-list people don't waste time with puppies. they put 5 and 6 figure prices out there on the right dogs and skip the washing process.
________
DRUG TESTING KIT

 

[ducksoup]

Repeat breedings lessen the odds on getting a good one -- more info one has the better a decision one can make -- I also look for a bloodline that is consistently competitive as well as suited to my needs/abilities -- as discussed in previous thread, these can sometimes go to very select homes and be sold well before litter is born (obviously this is the case when both parents titled and/or proven producers)

 

[Chief Batman]

To answer your question I would say they are only somewhat unpredictable - not very unpredictable. Each dog is different, but a repeat means you have the additional information of what the combination of these two gene pools can produce.

And to your other question I would say they definitely increase your chances for getting a potential superstar. Of course there is no guarantee, but your chances are certainly better than simply guessing on something totally new.

 

[Ken Archer]

Hey, Ted and Pistol, are you related to my wife? I can hear that all the time at home. :wink:

 

[ducksoup]

Personally I'm looking at a repeat breeding -- first litter just over a year old but mostly with pros (different pros) -- heard good reports back about each dog -- so have an idea of what to expect

 

[Shayne Mehringer]

DEFINITELY on the repeat breeding. I just made reservations on a 3rd time repeat. First litter just turned two. Every pup that was campaigned racked up a ton of derby points and at least one of them is about to start running Amateurs. The second breeding is around a year old and doing extremely well from the people i've talked to. I'm excited.

SM

 

[Granddaddy]

....I like repeat breedings.

... The repeat of a proven breeding is likely to attract more, not less proven competitors.

I agree. The Lean Mac x Dust Devil's Desert Duk breeding(s) seemed pretty nice - and better yet for the rest of us their pups are producers.

 

[Steve Shaver]

DEFINITELY on the repeat breeding. I just made reservations on a 3rd time repeat. First litter just turned two. Every pup that was campaigned racked up a ton of derby points and at least one of them is about to start running Amateurs. The second breeding is around a year old and doing extremely well from the people i've talked to. I'm excited.

SM

3 Time in two years. My question is ain't that kinda rough on the ol girl? Poor thing barley has time to recoup from one litter and bingo here we go again. Would this have any effect on the quality of pups? Don't know just askin.

 

[Guest]

DEFINITELY on the repeat breeding. I just made reservations on a 3rd time repeat. First litter just turned two. Every pup that was campaigned racked up a ton of derby points and at least one of them is about to start running Amateurs. The second breeding is around a year old and doing extremely well from the people i've talked to. I'm excited.

SM

3 Time in two years. My question is ain't that kinda rough on the ol girl? Poor thing barley has time to recoup from one litter and bingo here we go again. Would this have any effect on the quality of pups? Don't know just askin.

that was my first thought, BUT if you do the math, she's being bred annually...

On the same note, I've found interesting what I've read from I think Dr. Hutchinson about how it's better for them to be bred every cycle and then spayed. ...because every heat cycle where they don't get bred is producing progesterone, which damages the uterus when the dog isn't bred...

Interesting.

-K

 

[Franco]

We hear and talk about the successful repeat breedings but never hear about the ones that are unsuccessful. I don't want to start naming dogs and bitches but it seems to me that there are just as many that don't produced winners as those that do. I would also think that the repeat gets better home placement.

Erins Ridge makes a comment on her post that I would believe. That sometimes one litter is better than the other, as a whole, for whatever reasons.

 

[ErinsEdge]

I'll give you an example: the first and second breedings of LeanMac and Bebe. My pro trainer had a male from the first breeding. Good dog showed a lot of potential, was on the derby list and QAA by two but did not excel in all age. I think there was only one other QAA in the litter. Second litter born 14 mo later Joyce Williams told her to pick one for her and raise him and she later sold the puppy to her. Kathy knew very early in his training he was different and was national caliber material. He was and his name is Rooster. He also has 3 titled littermates and one with I think 4 Open 2nds.
He just seemed to grasp everything quicker. Never have a bad day as a young dog. You talk to people and it happens. Same genetics, same trainer, it just happens. The Lottie/Abe combination seemed to be the best nick. The Bebe/Abe combination seems to be going the same way. There are other nicks that work. No one has a crystal ball and can foresee good nicks until years later after they have been done. It's already been proven that even cloning doesn't produce the same individual. I don't know why we can accept differences in siblings but we think we can engineer dogs. It's just the way it is. Greatness is not easily duplicated but we can stack the odds in our favor by repeating. Litters can be different or not. It's really all in how the genes match up at that moment of conception, especially the genes for marking and trainability. Minute differences in learning ability maybe be further influenced by diet? They now say children whose mothers consumed more fish are smarter, or even more exacting by adding DHA to the diet. It may be that the bitch has greater influence in certain areas of the genetic makeup on the chromosomes but everyone thinks the sires are the prepotent ones. The secondary reasons ARE placement and training. There is no easy 123 book in how to breed great dogs but everyone wants to discover the key. It's elusive, but build on the knowledge we know and cross your fingers.

 

[DRAKEHAVEN]

My thoughts/questions run very similar to Nancy's on why a repeat works or doesn't.

My general rule regarding repeat breedings.
This is only particular to dogs not livestock where I cut my teeth on breeding principles. The reason being with dogs we can not eat our mistakes, we have to guarentee them, and hope they have a reasonable quality of life, pain free.

No repeat should be done until we have determined that the Vast Majority of a litter as passed the minimum health clearences for that breed.
Why do a repeat in a year when the 1 st litter is 50% dysplastic at 2 years ? Or is diagnosed with juvenile cataracts at 16 months ?

What would the reasoning be to try and duplicate something ? Did we think as a breeder that we got it right the 1st time, that being we produced the PERFECT specimen of the breed ?
There are precious few breeding that were so good they should be done again. As a breeder we should be looking to improve, with every generation, with every litter. If a bitch workied reasonably well to dog X, but the pups displayed some traits, typical of dog x, that were common and less desireable. Why would you not identify this and seek out a sire with a similar pedigree the good traits of X but not the common traits. Dog X's 1/2 brother, his sire or his uncle ?

John
________
herbal health shop

 

[ErinsEdge]

John, I don't agree with not doing repeat breedings when you are working with bitch lines you are familiar with, that have been with you for years as opposed to newer breeders that don't have a line. You could also waste a breeding and regret not doing it again and keeping a second dog in case something unforseen happened to the first dog non-health wise. I don't worry as much about the clearances (maybe because I have been very lucky) and improving each time you breed is almost impossible considering few of us know what skeltons are in the closets of most dogs' backgrounds...really. There is so much not spoken.

 

[Ted Shih]

I have a saying - The perfect is the enemy of the good.

Could you do better with another sire? Possibly.
Could you do worse with another sire? Possibly.
But, do your odds of repeating traits increase with repeating a breeding? I think so.

Breeders repeat because more is known.
Buyers are interested because more is known.
Most people are content with the good and are not seeking the perfect

Over the years, I have seen several young dogs from the same sire, or from a repeat breeding. These dogs often have similar training traits. That history can be useful to the trainer as well and is another reason that people buy puppies from breedings with which they have some familiarity.

 

[ducksoup]

Some really good points on repeat breedings -- especially since I'm looking at getting a new pup in the near future -- and I'm looking at a few repeat breedings before choosing