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Discussion Starter · #1 · (Edited)
This weekend we were talking about a dog that has a history of leaving for the long retired gun but on the way out to the Long Retired, the dog is influenced by a stand out gun where the dog has already picked up a bird. It "normally" occurs when the standout gun may go out of sight for a bit and then the dog sees it while in route to the long retired and it suddenly changes his direction.

I assume this would happen on a short retired in front of a long standout too, but I haven't seen the dog in question run that type of setup.

So, what would be the suggested ways to help teach and also correct for this?

**If it matters, the dog is 4 years old
 

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If it was a somewhat isolated incident I would perhaps have the retired gun step out and help the dog. Handling the dog is option #2.
However, this dog has a history with the issue so I would likely set up some sort of drill to simplify and hopefully get the dog on board with running by standouts on the way to that retired.
 

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One was is the Texas 10 step drill. Long singles that retire before the send. Leave other gunners out.
 

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Using the standard layout for an ABCD drill, present the marks short to long. After picking up the shortest mark (a), retire the (b) gun, and so on, so that the dog is always retrieving a retired mark while running past the shorter stand out gun(s).

Over several weeks, gradually extend the setup to trial distances and introduce terrain such that the dog loses sight of the retired marks enroute. Over time, I would expect the dog to show improvement on this issue. -Paul
 

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LOL, guess we were both typing at the same time...never heard it called that, though. Started doing it back in the 90's. -Paul
 

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Discussion Starter · #7 ·
One was is the Texas 10 step drill. Long singles that retire before the send. Leave other gunners out.
This was one idea that was discussed that he plans to work on. However, in this scenario, if the dog gets tripped up by the suction of a different gunner, then what? Just handle? Or correct for attempting to go to an old fall? Start with handling and eventually correct if the problem persists?
 

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Or correct for attempting to go to an old fall?
Correction for returning to an old fall is always justified and deserved IF you are certain of the dogs intent. If you have any doubt at all, it is better to handle. It is better to re-create the concept and get a correction than to correct in a situation that was not black-and-white to the dog
 

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Discussion Starter · #9 ·
Correction for returning to an old fall is always justified and deserved IF you are certain of the dogs intent. If you have any doubt at all, it is better to handle. It is better to re-create the concept and get a correction than to correct in a situation that was not black-and-white to the dog
That was our dilemma when providing advice on the subject. We felt maybe the dog wasn't really intentionally returning to an old fall, but rather just being surprised by the gunner he suddenly saw and the dog thinking "oh it must be over there" and then deciding to change his route. We felt it wasn't black and white of the dogs intent.
 

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TCU coach Gary Patterson was asked by a breathless reporter as he was leaving the field at halftime down 21 points, “Coach Patterson what are you going to tell your team at halftime”? Without hesitation he answered “I’m going to tell them to just keep playing”, they ultimately won the game.
So, just keep training! Try to duplicate the situation in training as much as possible starting with doubles and making the short gun more attractive with 2 people or a person and a dummy and retiring the much much longer memory bird. When the dog veers toward the short gun handle immediately. Shooting a flyer for the long retired memory bird is a good choice to but don’t overdo it. The dogs that I have seen that succumb to the old fall have generally not been introduced to retired guns early enough, too much training for the Derby, not enough training for the long haul. At this dog’s age the tendency might be too deeply ingrained to overcome.
 

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Dr Ed, I'd be curious to hear more on your 'early exposure' to retired guns. Obviously in HT, all the guns are hidden, and I know many people train thus, who run HT. However, the dependency on the white coat/stickman, in the training of an AA dog, seems very likely to me, if retired marks aren't begun at about the time doubles become 'doable' for a young dog. Retire en route, have guns that go out of sight, and drills like the TX 10 step came to mind, but I was unsure of the name of the drill, or that it had one.

Also - would it be unwise to run a series of double marks where the go bird starts out fairly set apart from the memory mark, but with each repeat get a little tighter and thus becoming more tempting as a suction factor..... This would be done while leaving the long retired mark where it is - more like a marking drill - way to teach tighter and tighter lines to a long retired.....I am not talking big distances here - maybe 200ish for the long mark and 125-150 for the short. (Then you also have to consider if you want the marks to be hip pocket, converging, diverging, etc - plus wind)

Also - what about doing a setup of 4 singles one day, and the next day or couple days later, repeat as double/double with long mark retired? Starting with the easiest one.

Genuinely curious, as I just don't train (don't really have the means to, as I train alone) for retired marks.
 

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Genuinely curious, as I just don't train (don't really have the means to, as I train alone) for retired marks.
Sit your dog at the line, walk or ride an atv out and throw 2, 3, 4, even 5 marks. One or 2 with stick men. Walk or drive back to the line and send, I do it several times every week, sometimes run a blind or two before a couple marks.
 

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Sit your dog at the line, walk or ride an atv out and throw 2, 3, 4, even 5 marks. One or 2 with stick men. Walk or drive back to the line and send, I do it several times every week, sometimes run a blind or two before a couple marks.
I have done this a few times with doubles. The problem is that I do walk, so doing multiples that are not 'around the horn', or that are more than 200 yd, are, at least in my way of thinking, not very fair to the dog - esp a young dog just learning the ropes of retired marks.

And yes, I knew I would get a comment about guns not being hidden at ht all the time. I was referring more to the white vs camo.
 

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The problem is that I do walk, so doing multiples that are not 'around the horn', or that are more than 200 yd, are, at least in my way of thinking, not very fair to the dog - esp a young dog just learning the ropes of retired marks.
I actually do this quite a lot and find it very helpful. With a pup it is almost always a double or single. Distances don't need to be great, just work in some factors and keep the marks far enough apart so the pup won't likely get into trouble.
 
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