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Balance in this case generally refers to drill work vs. marks. How many set-ups of drill scenarios per week and how many marking setups per week? Do the markings setups in question include live shot Flyers? And if so how many times compared to Mark's with dead birds?
 

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Discussion Starter #62
Balance in this case generally refers to drill work vs. marks. How many set-ups of drill scenarios per week and how many marking setups per week? Do the markings setups in question include live shot Flyers? And if so how many times compared to Mark's with dead birds?
I do no Mark work. Only drills 3+ times a week
 

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Not a pro or even a good trainer, just curious but have you tried not using the collar? My dog does t like the collar because I put a lot of pressure on him at a young age and now he runs harder and better for me without a collar. Even if I just put the collar on him without the remote and never use it, he’s worried about making a mistake. Do you use fun bumpers when they do something right or just at a boys? I saw you said your using white buckets, had that changed anything? Have you tried changing locations? I don’t have a lot of land so I normally go to the park to do a lot of my work.
 

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After all they are lab retrievers because they like to retrieve
Yours doesn't and it is your fault. The problem could still be fixed if you were willing to listen and learn.
 

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Even if I just put the collar on him without the remote and never use it, he’s worried about making a mistake.
You are using too much collar pressure and or using it inappropriately.
Your dog should be excited when you put on the collar.
 

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You are using too much collar pressure and or using it inappropriately.
Your dog should be excited when you put on the collar.
I agree with you, I made a mistake and corrected myself by not using it until I understood how to properly use it. That’s why I asked if the OP has tried not using the collar and if so, did they get a different response.
I stopped using the collar at 12 months and have recently started using it again for hunting season. My dog is 18 months and he does much better with it but I lowered the stimulation to a 1 high and have had great results with it.
 

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Bonefish
Whether your dog leans in to you or not has nothing to do with whether he is forced to a pile or not or properly FF or not. He/She doesn't want to do the work at hand. Lots of dogs hate drill work and will try to get out of doing it. Byron Parks gave you some decent insight. This is something you have to play with to find what will get her through this. Lots of dogs get washed by big time pro's because of these problems.An amateur has plenty of time to screw around with problems like this.
You can simplify or just make them go when she looks at you. There is finesse involved with doing this. Between simplifying/tossing a bumper and forcing her on it or whatever you come up with. We don't know your dogs temperament and how she reacts to pressure. Some dogs have good reactions and others not so good. You have to figure it out. I personally simplify and force when when they look at me and at least they quit looking at me and we widdle away at it from there. They all get through it.Some prettier than others Some come out of their funk when you move on and less pressure is used some don't.. All dogs are different. Don't let people convince you other wise and make you feel stupid
Pete
 

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My suggestion is find a training group or a club to join
Preferably someone with experience to help fix your issue because it can be fixed just gonna take time
 

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Hi Bonefish - I commend you for sticking it out here. It is hard to lay out what you've done and get a lot of 'critique'.

Your pup is only 6 months old? If so - that is YOUNG. Perhaps you've put yourself on a 'set in stone' timeline of training? If so, I suggest you trash that idea and move to a more fluid timeline.

Something else to think about. Imagine that, from your dog's perspective she sees a huge fire and bed of coals between her and the pile of bumpers - maybe even two or three beds of coals and fires that she has to cross.... Not only that but she also believes this fire and bed of coals will get bigger and hotter each time you give the 'back' command. She does not want to put herself in a dangerous situation (in her eyes, not yours!) and so she refuses to go.

Compare that to a dog who's been properly conditioned to respond to the collar pressure. They look out and see a little smoke. They understand that the pressure may (or may not happen), but they are not so fearful of it that they outright refuse to take a command. Conditioning is key. They know they will succeed every single time because they were shown how to negotiate the 'fire' and put it out.

I remember talking to a FT'er some time ago - asked him how a recent trial went (this is an FC AFC dog) ... He said they went out in the second series. She no goed on the blind. Dogs CAN see so much danger out in the field that they WILL or MAY no go. In their mind, the punishment at the line is better than what they think is going to happen out in the field. That's how I see it.
 

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Discussion Starter #71
Yours doesn't and it is your fault. The problem could still be fixed if you were willing to listen and learn.
you dont know anything about my dog or me. she will retrieve all day. what she does not want to do is take a cast command when she does not see something in front
 

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Discussion Starter #72
Bonefish
Whether your dog leans in to you or not has nothing to do with whether he is forced to a pile or not or properly FF or not. He/She doesn't want to do the work at hand. Lots of dogs hate drill work and will try to get out of doing it. Byron Parks gave you some decent insight. This is something you have to play with to find what will get her through this. Lots of dogs get washed by big time pro's because of these problems.An amateur has plenty of time to screw around with problems like this.
You can simplify or just make them go when she looks at you. There is finesse involved with doing this. Between simplifying/tossing a bumper and forcing her on it or whatever you come up with. We don't know your dogs temperament and how she reacts to pressure. Some dogs have good reactions and others not so good. You have to figure it out. I personally simplify and force when when they look at me and at least they quit looking at me and we widdle away at it from there. They all get through it.Some prettier than others Some come out of their funk when you move on and less pressure is used some don't.. All dogs are different. Don't let people convince you other wise and make you feel stupid
Pete
this has probably been the best advice i have received on this post. i appreciate your words and will take them to heart
 

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Discussion Starter #73
Hi Bonefish - I commend you for sticking it out here. It is hard to lay out what you've done and get a lot of 'critique'.

Your pup is only 6 months old? If so - that is YOUNG. Perhaps you've put yourself on a 'set in stone' timeline of training? If so, I suggest you trash that idea and move to a more fluid timeline.

Something else to think about. Imagine that, from your dog's perspective she sees a huge fire and bed of coals between her and the pile of bumpers - maybe even two or three beds of coals and fires that she has to cross.... Not only that but she also believes this fire and bed of coals will get bigger and hotter each time you give the 'back' command. She does not want to put herself in a dangerous situation (in her eyes, not yours!) and so she refuses to go.

Compare that to a dog who's been properly conditioned to respond to the collar pressure. They look out and see a little smoke. They understand that the pressure may (or may not happen), but they are not so fearful of it that they outright refuse to take a command. Conditioning is key. They know they will succeed every single time because they were shown how to negotiate the 'fire' and put it out.

I remember talking to a FT'er some time ago - asked him how a recent trial went (this is an FC AFC dog) ... He said they went out in the second series. She no goed on the blind. Dogs CAN and DO see so much danger out in the field that they WILL or MAY no go. In their mind, the punishment at the line is better than what they think is going to happen out in the field. That's how I see it.
these are great words. she is actually 11 months and has been training for 6. What i see in the yard with my dog is the opposite. she will run some blinds, however, she reaches a point when she is no longer interested and will not look ahead. Her bed of coals is 2 ft in front of her and she no longer wants to work. Even though she knows there is a pile of bumpers on the other end
 

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Discussion Starter #74
My suggestion is find a training group or a club to join
Preferably someone with experience to help fix your issue because it can be fixed just gonna take time
my dad has a little bit of experience training hunting dogs and we have friends that do it. i will reach out to some of them. thanks
 

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you dont know anything about my dog or me. she will retrieve all day. what she does not want to do is take a cast command when she does not see something in front
This is what I know about your dog. I think it is your fault and not your dogs.
You are free to disagree.
 

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If a dog is failing to comply with a command, it is the trainer's fault. The dog is just doing what it was 'trained' to do. (or in this case, not to do). If a dog repeats a behavior more than 3 times, you've got a pattern established or in the process of being established. Whether you directly taught it, or indirectly taught it.
 

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Discussion Starter #78
If a dog is failing to comply with a command, it is the trainer's fault. The dog is just doing what it was 'trained' to do. (or in this case, not to do). If a dog repeats a behavior more than 3 times, you've got a pattern established or in the process of being established. Whether you directly taught it, or indirectly taught it.
understood. so this is the crossroads im hearing in what you are saying. i did force to pile with as little pressure as possible. i had no big issues with bugging until side back, left/right back, and over were all complete. she would bug a little at the beginning of training but nothing severe. it took several weeks to master each cast but the dog was interested throughout this time. now that i am putting all three together the dog does not want to take a side back cast. she is bugging incredibly hard. Now is this an issue because of light pressure used during FTP? if so, how am i supposed to backtrack and use pressure to complete FTP AND at the same time im using pressure incorrectly? A lot of what im hearing is not all adding up together
 

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you can think whatever you want. at the end of the day you know nothing
Wrong
I know that I have a lot to learn about training and handling retrievers.
Working on that again today.

Probably see you in Mondovi next June.(y)
 
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