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i did force to pile with as little pressure as possible

At least you finally admitted she isn't forced.
 

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Bonefish you have came to a public forum soliciting advice. Many people have given you advice and just because you don't like it doesn't mean its wrong. Read what everyone says, understanding that it is their opinion, and then choose what works for you. You can question their advice but lashing out isn't going to get you anywhere. Many of these people have trained dogs to extremely high levels and they still learn something everyday about dogs.

PS Going to Mondovi next year is the pinnacle of amateur dog training accomplishments.
 

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Discussion Starter #84
Bonefish you have came to a public forum soliciting advice. Many people have given you advice and just because you don't like it doesn't mean its wrong. Read what everyone says, understanding that it is their opinion, and then choose what works for you. You can question their advice but lashing out isn't going to get you anywhere. Many of these people have trained dogs to extremely high levels and they still learn something everyday about dogs.

PS Going to Mondovi next year is the pinnacle of amateur dog training accomplishments.
thanks man
 

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IMHO your dog is simply bored. A steady diet of nothing but drills will do that. Your haven't ruined your dog or anything like that. But you have a significant remedial task in front of you.
Drills are not fun for dog and they are something that doesn't come natural.
Chasing after marks is natural and fun. The first thing I would do is take a short break from drills and do marks with ducks for a few days.
Then restart drills but keep marks and drills in balance. Start back with simple casting (short distances).After that goes well move to FTP. Start very close to pile with front sit backs. Back up slowly but keeping send from front sit position. Keep backing up until you get to about 35-40 yards (max and stop the 100 yd business). When it is going well, slip in a side send somewhere. This drill should be at a different location than simple casting. If initially he turns wrong way on front sit backs, let him go. Don't stop because you want him to go and he may get wrong message.
Keep a small bumper in your back pocket. After a few sends from side (at 40 yd). Throw a happy bumper off to the side. Keep his attitude up .
When this is resolved come back and let us know.
A couple of questions:
What book are you following? So I can reference for comments.
Where do you live? I may know someone there who can help you.
What are your goals for dog?
 
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Black lab
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Discussion Starter #86
IMHO your dog is simply bored. A steady diet of nothing but drills will do that. Your haven't ruined your dog or anything like that. But you have a significant remedial task in front of you.
Drills are not fun for dog and they are something that doesn't come natural.
Chasing after marks is natural and fun. The first thing I would do is take a short break from drills and do marks with ducks for a few days.
Then restart drills but keep marks and drills in balance. Start back with simple casting (short distances).After that goes well move to FTP. Start very close to pile with front sit backs. Back up slowly but keeping send from front sit position. Keep backing up until you get to about 35-40 yards (max and stop the 100 yd business). When it is going well, slip in a side send somewhere. This drill should be at a different location than simple casting. If initially he turns wrong way on front sit backs, let him go. Don't stop because you want him to go and he may get wrong message.
Keep a small bumper in your back pocket. After a few sends from side (at 40 yd). Throw a happy bumper off to the side. Keep his attitude up .
When this is resolved come back and let us know.
A couple of questions:
What book are you following? So I can reference for comments.
Where do you live? I may know someone there who can help you.
What are your goals for dog?
this is the type of comments i came to this forum for. you gave me direct feedback for what i should do to help with my problems. i will try them. as for yours questions i am using Lardy's book. i live in south louisiana. my goal is for my dog to pick up every duck i shoot out the sky so i dont have to put my waders on and get in the marsh mud
 

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nice one boomer.

i appreciate your comment. For more back story, while forcing to the pile i did it entirely from the side until the pile was established out to 100 yards. i never did a left/right back cast. I forced to the pile from my side all the way up to 100 yards for 10-14 days. until the dog understood what "back" is. Then i transitioned to left/right back. Perhaps i introduced trouble by teaching them separately. i will go back and reteach from the side.
I'm new to this thread.
If you focus on what is highlighted in red and also this nugget you posted a few hours later you get these 2 phrases
I forced to the pile from my side all I forced to the pile from my side all the way up to 100 yards for 10-14 days. until the dog understood what "back" is......
"I do no Mark work. Only drills 3+ times a week"
It is not surprising that your pup is no going. I'm kind of surprised he isn't biting you;
I'm guessing he is not a Chessie? :)
You aren't going to solve this with internet advice, but I will add these two pieces of internet advice.
1)For most any dog.10-14 days of FTP is way too much if done properly.
2) Drill work can get tedious. Break it up and BALANCE it with fun things such as MARKS

You need to have someone who knows what they are doing to help you IN PERSON in order to interpret the dogs body language & reactions. That may be you,...but I doubt it.
Tell us where you livefor some suggestions and reach out to local KNOWLEDGEABLE retriever folks

Always Remember; You've got to leave something in it for the dog!!!
 

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I'm new to this thread.
If you focus on what is highlighted in red and also this nugget you posted a few hours later you get these 2 phrases
I forced to the pile from my side all I forced to the pile from my side all the way up to 100 yards for 10-14 days. until the dog understood what "back" is......
"I do no Mark work. Only drills 3+ times a week"
It is not surprising that your pup is no going. I'm kind of surprised he isn't biting you;
I'm guessing he is not a Chessie? :)
You aren't going to solve this with internet advice, but I will add these two pieces of internet advice.
1)For most any dog.10-14 days of FTP is way too much if done properly.
2) Drill work can get tedious. Break it up and BALANCE it with fun things such as MARKS

You need to have someone who knows what they are doing to help you IN PERSON in order to interpret the dogs body language & reactions. That may be you,...but I doubt it.
Tell us where you livefor some suggestions and reach out to local KNOWLEDGEABLE retriever folks

Always Remember; You've got to leave something in it for the dog!!!
I agree. 10-14 days on ftp is too much. He is using Lardy’s method, one session of stick to pile and the dog will understand the concept pretty well if stick fetch was done properly before hand and will be even more clear to the dog after 1-2 sessions of collar force to pile. He did note he is using low pressure on ftp, more like nagging the dog instead of using the right amount of pressure to create a strong compulsion to go. Dont know if he is using enough pressure to correct on no-go’s or bugging too. He did say this is his first dog he is training, with his lack of experience, my bet, the issue is the trainer not the dog. And sounds like he is running the dog down too much on drills and made the dog hate it, directly or indirectly.
 

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Discussion Starter #90
I agree. 10-14 days on ftp is too much. He is using Lardy’s method, one session of stick to pile and the dog will understand the concept pretty well if stick fetch was done properly before hand and will be even more clear to the dog after 1-2 sessions of collar force to pile. He did note he is using low pressure on ftp, more like nagging the dog instead of using the right amount of pressure to create a strong compulsion to go. Dont know if he is using enough pressure to correct on no-go’s or bugging too. He did say this is his first dog he is training, with his lack of experience, my bet, the issue is the trainer not the dog. And sounds like he is running the dog down too much on drills and made the dog hate it, directly or indirectly.
i think you summed it up nicely
 

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Discussion Starter #91
I'm new to this thread.
If you focus on what is highlighted in red and also this nugget you posted a few hours later you get these 2 phrases
I forced to the pile from my side all I forced to the pile from my side all the way up to 100 yards for 10-14 days. until the dog understood what "back" is......
"I do no Mark work. Only drills 3+ times a week"
It is not surprising that your pup is no going. I'm kind of surprised he isn't biting you;
I'm guessing he is not a Chessie? :)
You aren't going to solve this with internet advice, but I will add these two pieces of internet advice.
1)For most any dog.10-14 days of FTP is way too much if done properly.
2) Drill work can get tedious. Break it up and BALANCE it with fun things such as MARKS

You need to have someone who knows what they are doing to help you IN PERSON in order to interpret the dogs body language & reactions. That may be you,...but I doubt it.
Tell us where you livefor some suggestions and reach out to local KNOWLEDGEABLE retriever folks

Always Remember; You've got to leave something in it for the dog!!!
depending on who you talk to some people dont recommend marks during this training, which is why i did not.
 

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depending on who you talk to some people dont recommend marks during this training, which is why i did not.
I know of some trainers who don't recommend Marks during FF {I disagree in MOST cases}, but I have NEVER heard anyone reccommend no Marks during pile/T work
 

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Discussion Starter #93
I know of some trainers who don't recommend Marks during FF {I disagree in MOST cases}, but I have NEVER heard anyone reccommend no Marks during pile/T work
ahh 10/4. some slight confusion on my end then. perhaps i just heard wrong
 

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This is my first post on this forum and this is my second dog I have ever trained but I ran in to almost the same problem as you. It never got better and I was wanting him to run blinds badly and not doing anything but drills. He simply was not having fun. I backed off of drill work for 5 days and ran marks with live birds, dead birds and bumpers.
I forgot that this needs to be fun for the dog. Drills are boring and they are not fun. Make it fun for the dog and slowly revisit the steps after a short break.
I may or may not be right. This is just what worked for me. I am by no means a professional or a reliable source.
 

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I know of some trainers who don't recommend Marks during FF {I disagree in MOST cases}, but I have NEVER heard anyone reccommend no Marks during pile/T work
Mjh, you are right. By the time the force fetch is complete and polished off from hold all the way to end of ecollar walking fetch, throwing marks will not cause an issue at all during pile work.
 

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85413
Is this the book you are following?
 

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I went back and picked a few phrases and comments.

1) From my experience, doing too much pile work with the wrong dog will come back to bite you. This was one of my comments.

2) On average 3-4 weeks per skill.

3) 10-30 minutes a day on whatever drills we are working on

4) What do you mean balance?

5) I do no Mark work. Only drills 3+ times a week

6) Lots of dogs hate drill work and will try to get out of doing it.

7) You don’t know anything about my dog or me. She will retrieve all day. What she does not want to do is take a cast command when she does not see something in front

8) You can think whatever you want. At the end of the day, you know nothing.

9) She is bugging incredibly hard. Now is this an issue because of light pressure used during FTP? If so, how am I supposed to backtrack and use pressure to complete FTP AND at the same time I'm using pressure incorrectly? A lot of what I'm hearing is not all adding up together.

10) depending on who you talk to some people don't recommend marks during this training...which is why I did not.

There is a lot "stuff" to digest in the above list. However, #9 is probably the most important. When you asked "How am I supposed to backtrack and use pressure to complete FTP?"

It is rather obvious to me that training is out of balance. Backtracking does not mean returning to some place in time and applying pressure to fix things.
Pressure is only fair and effective when the dog has been taught the expectation. Once the dog is conditioned to not responding properly to a command
pressure is not going to correct what was not taught. One of the key components of teaching is FUN and REWARDING action. "Must do" vs, Want to"
is the problem. Pressure does not create "want to" unless "what to" is emphasized.

Many years ago, with my first, well bred pup, I did not know how difficult training can be. She did everything right even when I was presenting it poorly. She
taught me how to train a truly gifted retriever. It was easy...then again not really. Then I purchase a well bred, high powered field trial dog. Little did I know that
he naturally hated work. And pile work can be right up there at the top of the list in terms fun or work. I almost ruined him. Marking he was fantastic. Drills drove
me nuts. Then someone suggested walking baseball. This involves marks and casts to marks. He loved it. Teaching him to handle became a night and day
difference.

And in some ways I don't know you or your dog....except that things are not going well. One thing I have learned over the years is when one is inexperienced
and issues arise it is generally not the dog. So my advice is to find a teaching mentor to bail you out.

I will end with this bit of advice. Early on I had a young female retriever that was very talented. However, we were having some issues with passing
advanced tests. A pro moved close by and we became friends. One day I told him of my problems. He said, "Bring her over and I'll watch you work together."

So I did. We did some OB work and he said nothing. We did a little pile work and still no reply. I asked a couple of times again. Finally, I got a bit short in
my replies and insisted again. He said, "Well.....it is not the dog". I paused for a moment and stated, "I kind of knew that. Why did you NOT say anything."

His reply was, "Well...., most clients do not want to hear that." So in conclusion and based on this lengthy thread plus all the back and forth exchanges,
It is most likely not the dog in your case, too. " Seek some help via private lessons. Find a mentor....for hands on, personal, specific advice from a
teaching mentor. Perspective on the Internet is difficult.

edit: 93 posts on pile work.. :oops:
 

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Discussion Starter #99
This is my first post on this forum and this is my second dog I have ever trained but I ran in to almost the same problem as you. It never got better and I was wanting him to run blinds badly and not doing anything but drills. He simply was not having fun. I backed off of drill work for 5 days and ran marks with live birds, dead birds and bumpers.
I forgot that this needs to be fun for the dog. Drills are boring and they are not fun. Make it fun for the dog and slowly revisit the steps after a short break.
I may or may not be right. This is just what worked for me. I am by no means a professional or a reliable source.
agreed. im glad you can relate to what i am experiencing. thanks for the input
 

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Discussion Starter #100
I went back and picked a few phrases and comments.

1) From my experience, doing too much pile work with the wrong dog will come back to bite you. This was one of my comments.

2) On average 3-4 weeks per skill.

3) 10-30 minutes a day on whatever drills we are working on

4) What do you mean balance?

5) I do no Mark work. Only drills 3+ times a week

6) Lots of dogs hate drill work and will try to get out of doing it.

7) You don’t know anything about my dog or me. She will retrieve all day. What she does not want to do is take a cast command when she does not see something in front

8) You can think whatever you want. At the end of the day, you know nothing.

9) She is bugging incredibly hard. Now is this an issue because of light pressure used during FTP? If so, how am I supposed to backtrack and use pressure to complete FTP AND at the same time I'm using pressure incorrectly? A lot of what I'm hearing is not all adding up together.

10) depending on who you talk to some people don't recommend marks during this training...which is why I did not.

There is a lot "stuff" to digest in the above list. However, #9 is probably the most important. When you asked "How am I supposed to backtrack and use pressure to complete FTP?"

It is rather obvious to me that training is out of balance. Backtracking does not mean returning to some place in time and applying pressure to fix things.
Pressure is only fair and effective when the dog has been taught the expectation. Once the dog is conditioned to not responding properly to a command
pressure is not going to correct what was not taught. One of the key components of teaching is FUN and REWARDING action. "Must do" vs, Want to"
is the problem. Pressure does not create "want to" unless "what to" is emphasized.

Many years ago, with my first, well bred pup, I did not know how difficult training can be. She did everything right even when I was presenting it poorly. She
taught me how to train a truly gifted retriever. It was easy...then again not really. Then I purchase a well bred, high powered field trial dog. Little did I know that
he naturally hated work. And pile work can be right up there at the top of the list in terms fun or work. I almost ruined him. Marking he was fantastic. Drills drove
me nuts. Then someone suggested walking baseball. This involves marks and casts to marks. He loved it. Teaching him to handle became a night and day
difference.

And in some ways I don't know you or your dog....except that things are not going well. One thing I have learned over the years is when one is inexperienced
and issues arise it is generally not the dog. So my advice is to find a teaching mentor to bail you out.

I will end with this bit of advice. Early on I had a young female retriever that was very talented. However, we were having some issues with passing
advanced tests. A pro moved close by and we became friends. One day I told him of my problems. He said, "Bring her over and I'll watch you work together."

So I did. We did some OB work and he said nothing. We did a little pile work and still no reply. I asked a couple of times again. Finally, I got a bit short in
my replies and insisted again. He said, "Well.....it is not the dog". I paused for a moment and stated, "I kind of knew that. Why did you NOT say anything."

His reply was, "Well...., most clients do not want to hear that." So in conclusion and based on this lengthy thread plus all the back and forth exchanges,
It is most likely not the dog in your case, too. " Seek some help via private lessons. Find a mentor....for hands on, personal, specific advice from a
teaching mentor. Perspective on the Internet is difficult.

edit: 93 posts on pile work.. :oops:
thanks man. i appreciate your input. i will take it into consideration
 
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