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I continue to do marks throughout the FF process.
 

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Read paragraph 2. And paragraph in box on the above image. Then look at flow chart in your book on page iv. You will see all things on field progression done concurrently with yard work.
Look on page 19 middle paragraph where Lardy encourages you to keep doing marks to keep dogs attitude up.
I think part of the problem with some people is that information has to be drug out. For instance Lardy has more than one book.
 
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What your dog is doing is not uncommon. It's too bad you didn't know how to correct it the first time it happened because it may take more pressure to fix now, since it has become a habit. The dog is not going when sent because of previous pressure or unpleasantness after it left your side on some drills or patterns you were using. Maybe you used the collar too much to correct bad casts before the dog understood what casting was all about. Maybe you burned for bad initial lines and the dog hadn't been properly taught to take an initial line with lining drills. Maybe you used too much direct pressure with the e-collar forcing to a pile. It doesn't matter why or where you created pressure for the dog, it just matters that it was enough to cause the dog to prefer to stay at your side and not take a chance leaving and going through whatever it was that caused the dog to no-go in the first place. Cardinal rule here is the pressure of correction must exceed the pressure of cause. Another way to look at it is since the dog thinks it is better to no-go when sent, you need to use more pressure to show him that is not an option. You said you have stepped forward and "nicked " the dog, but that didn't work. Well you didn't use high enough setting on collar, or didn't extend the duration of the electricity, or didn't repeat the maneuver until the dog left your side. At some point, the pressure at your side will outweigh the pressure that caused the dog to "bug". I realize you are somewhat inexperienced so you wouldn't have known this and so weren't able to nip- it in the bud like a more experienced trainer would have done. Keep in mind that indirect pressure is safer to use in training than direct pressure. Using direct pressure for heel as you step forward, serves as indirect pressure for the "back" command in this scenario.
 

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If ewe went to the river and the boat ramp it could maybe find a stick but of that in would be could to have some fun becase it cloud be its always no should be funner TB.
 

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H.P. said, "If ewe went to the river and the boat ramp it could maybe find a stick but of that in would be could to have some fun becase it cloud be its always no should be funner TB."

I wanted to reply to that, but I may need a few more drinks before it makes any sense. Well, maybe more than a few. :love:
 

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What your dog is doing is not uncommon. It's too bad you didn't know how to correct it the first time it happened because it may take more pressure to fix now, since it has become a habit. The dog is not going when sent because of previous pressure or unpleasantness after it left your side on some drills or patterns you were using. Maybe you used the collar too much to correct bad casts before the dog understood what casting was all about. Maybe you burned for bad initial lines and the dog hadn't been properly taught to take an initial line with lining drills. Maybe you used too much direct pressure with the e-collar forcing to a pile. It doesn't matter why or where you created pressure for the dog, it just matters that it was enough to cause the dog to prefer to stay at your side and not take a chance leaving and going through whatever it was that caused the dog to no-go in the first place. Cardinal rule here is the pressure of correction must exceed the pressure of cause. Another way to look at it is since the dog thinks it is better to no-go when sent, you need to use more pressure to show him that is not an option. You said you have stepped forward and "nicked " the dog, but that didn't work. Well you didn't use high enough setting on collar, or didn't extend the duration of the electricity, or didn't repeat the maneuver until the dog left your side. At some point, the pressure at your side will outweigh the pressure that caused the dog to "bug". I realize you are somewhat inexperienced so you wouldn't have known this and so weren't able to nip- it in the bud like a more experienced trainer would have done. Keep in mind that indirect pressure is safer to use in training than direct pressure. Using direct pressure for heel as you step forward, serves as indirect pressure for the "back" command in this scenario.
Someone give Minnducker an award for this! I applaud!
 

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Someone give Minnducker an award for this! I applaud!
Well, I do not. One can throw in phrases that seem to be correct in an attempt to cloud the issue on those that do not. You
simply DO NOT teach a dog to "take a chance".

"Cardinal rule here is the pressure of correction must exceed the pressure of cause." This is based on the assumption that
the dog actually has been taught the proper skill and how to deal with a correction. One must be very careful when justifying a
response by suggesting that something said is a "cardinal" rule.

This is interesting. "It's too bad you didn't know how to correct it the first time it happened because it may take more pressure
to fix now, since it has become a habit." How can the "first time it happened"....suddenly become a habit?

When a young dog makes a mistake (and they do), the first thing that should be done is to make sure the dog knows exactly
what it must do (more teaching) and repeat the correct behavior several times demonstrating that it now knows what it is expected.
Then the dog should be exposed to distractions to make sure the skill is established. This must be the FULL process BEFORE
even considering the idea of making a correction.

The phrase used "What your dog is doing is not uncommon." is probably more accurate with a slight modification. It is happens
when the dog is not being taught (teaching skills are weak). Corrections are not a solution for poor teaching,

Too repeat, what the trainer is doing is not uncommon. It is, unfortunately, all too common. Teach first, practice precisely (a lot) and
expose the learning dog to distractions. And a dog will learn about corrections (when they are applied fairly). This last sentence
is often times the most challenging aspect of learning how to train.
 

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If ewe went to the river and the boat ramp it could maybe find a stick but of that in would be could to have some fun becase it cloud be its always no should be funner TB.
You can't argue with that lol
pete
 

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You can't argue with that lol
pete
Could if you got a ruiniversal retriever translator, Pete.

Well, ruiniversal retriever translator - exempting certain British Labs that cannae be ruined since they’re whelped pre-trained...

MG
 

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Could if you got a ruiniversal retriever translator, Pete.

Well, ruiniversal retriever translator - exempting certain British Labs that cannae be ruined since they’re whelped pre-trained...

MG
I often use a ruiniversal translator when I read your communications between Polomaise and the Cornell. Also just welped a Floyd litter that was welped pre trained and pre campaigned.. All NFC's. Want one. Pretty Dirt cheap for a pre welped pre trained pre campaigned 3 x NFC.:D
 

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Congrats on the successful litter Pete! Seeing as how they are all 3X NFC's, would you give me a discount if I campaign for the NAFC title? Should be able to finish that this spring in Mondovi. hahaha!!!
 

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"What your dog is doing is not uncommon. It's too bad you didn't know how to correct it the first time it happened because it may take more pressure to fix now, since it has become a habit. The dog is not going when sent because of previous pressure or unpleasantness after it left your side on some drills or patterns you were using. Maybe you used the collar too much to correct bad casts before the dog understood what casting was all about. Maybe you burned for bad initial lines and the dog hadn't been properly taught to take an initial line with lining drills. Maybe you used too much direct pressure with the e-collar forcing to a pile. It doesn't matter why or where you created pressure for the dog, it just matters that it was enough to cause the dog to prefer to stay at your side and not take a chance leaving and going through whatever it was that caused the dog to no-go in the first place. Cardinal rule here is the pressure of correction must exceed the pressure of cause. Another way to look at it is since the dog thinks it is better to no-go when sent, you need to use more pressure to show him that is not an option. You said you have stepped forward and "nicked " the dog, but that didn't work. Well you didn't use high enough setting on collar, or didn't extend the duration of the electricity, or didn't repeat the maneuver until the dog left your side. At some point, the pressure at your side will outweigh the pressure that caused the dog to "bug". I realize you are somewhat inexperienced so you wouldn't have known this and so weren't able to nip- it in the bud like a more experienced trainer would have done. Keep in mind that indirect pressure is safer to use in training than direct pressure. Using direct pressure for heel as you step forward, serves as indirect pressure for the "back" command in this scenario."



I am going to advocate for the dog.

The behavior is the result of poorly timed, or improper pressure, or both. For God's sake, more pressure should not be visited upon this dog in order to seek a "fix" for a problem caused by the trainer.

It turns my stomach to think that this will be done. - Paul
 

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The behavior is the result of poorly timed, or improper pressure, or both. For God's sake, more pressure should not be visited upon this dog in order to seek a "fix" for a problem caused by the trainer.

It turns my stomach to think that this will be done. - Paul
Paul is right. The dog lacks confidence and sees no path to success when challenged.
Neither can be burned into him although I suspect it will be tried.

But what do I know:(
 

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I often use a ruiniversal translator when I read your communications between Polomaise and the Cornell. Also just welped a Floyd litter that was welped pre trained and pre campaigned.. All NFC's. Want one. Pretty Dirt cheap for a pre welped pre trained pre campaigned 3 x NFC.:D
Pete, pretrained 3XNFCs notwithstanding, you (or Polmaise or the Colonel [Blimp]) don’t need a larf translator to find this a hoot and a half in any language, particularly ‘Mericanese mumbo jumbo

https://strungmag.com/quest-for-perfection-the-making-of-a-champion-retriever/

Who knows but that the OP might glean invaluable training insight to go along with others offered here?

MG
 

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Must be 'some' dawg - in the most southern ******* way one could imagine. Was his mom's name Charlotte, by chance? LOL!
 

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Discussion Starter #117
"What your dog is doing is not uncommon. It's too bad you didn't know how to correct it the first time it happened because it may take more pressure to fix now, since it has become a habit. The dog is not going when sent because of previous pressure or unpleasantness after it left your side on some drills or patterns you were using. Maybe you used the collar too much to correct bad casts before the dog understood what casting was all about. Maybe you burned for bad initial lines and the dog hadn't been properly taught to take an initial line with lining drills. Maybe you used too much direct pressure with the e-collar forcing to a pile. It doesn't matter why or where you created pressure for the dog, it just matters that it was enough to cause the dog to prefer to stay at your side and not take a chance leaving and going through whatever it was that caused the dog to no-go in the first place. Cardinal rule here is the pressure of correction must exceed the pressure of cause. Another way to look at it is since the dog thinks it is better to no-go when sent, you need to use more pressure to show him that is not an option. You said you have stepped forward and "nicked " the dog, but that didn't work. Well you didn't use high enough setting on collar, or didn't extend the duration of the electricity, or didn't repeat the maneuver until the dog left your side. At some point, the pressure at your side will outweigh the pressure that caused the dog to "bug". I realize you are somewhat inexperienced so you wouldn't have known this and so weren't able to nip- it in the bud like a more experienced trainer would have done. Keep in mind that indirect pressure is safer to use in training than direct pressure. Using direct pressure for heel as you step forward, serves as indirect pressure for the "back" command in this scenario."



I am going to advocate for the dog.

The behavior is the result of poorly timed, or improper pressure, or both. For God's sake, more pressure should not be visited upon this dog in order to seek a "fix" for a problem caused by the trainer.

It turns my stomach to think that this will be done. - Paul
dont worry, i didnt put extra pressure on my dog. i simply gave her a break for a couple days and will try to revisit slowly. no extra pressure
 

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Discussion Starter #118
Paul is right. The dog lacks confidence and sees no path to success when challenged.
Neither can be burned into him although I suspect it will be tried.

But what do I know:(
i know she is unconfident. she is still working on it. she is good at marking too but doesnt "hunt" like an experience dog. for example, bumper falls in the leaves and she knows where, but she doesnt trust her nose all that well. she will get better
 

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Bonefish, would you honestly share your dog's progress or lack thereof, and what you have done while trying to resolve the no-go problem? Thanks.
 

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dont worry, i didnt put extra pressure on my dog. i simply gave her a break for a couple days and will try to revisit slowly. no extra pressure
Make it fun again. Some females just lack confidence and fold if training is too regimental. Even repetition can be pressure to them. She thinks like she is going to the dentist. Keep your voice light and encouraging. Seed the area of falls “in leaves” with multiple bumpers so she is successful. Use birds!!!! I saw a pro throw a glove at the females’ head during double T because she wouldn’t look and she looked and took the cast. I said “what’s that?” She said I don’t know but it worked. I didn’t want to put pressure on her to look. Keep it light and fun but follow the training sequence without a timetable....slow down. There’s no reason she can’t be trained to be your hunting dog and enjoy it. Put the transmitter away for now until she’s having fun. When you resume use it only when she doesn’t GO, STOP, COME, and get in the water when she is running towards it.
 
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