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Discussion Starter #1
Here is a retriever training drills question:

My impression is DL Walters invented walking baseball?

Rex Carr invented drills?

  • water tune-up
  • swimb-by
  • bird boy blinds


Thanks.
 

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This has a possibility of turning into a good discussion.

I'm not sure DL "invented " walking baseball. But, he wrote about It in his book.

As far as Rex is concerned: without writing a book. He " wrote the book on collar training.

Back in the early '80's ( maybe late '70's) there was a list of notes , force fetch , collar etc. that was hand written and circulated that I believe was some of Rex's notes. Rex was on the west coast and I was on the east. Also I had hunting dogs and was not " connected "

Before Mike Lardy gave everybody the "Inside Baseball training " It was very hard to get good information without being connected.

That's just one mans opinion. There are folks on here that can and maybe should expand on your topic.

Thank you,

Randy
 

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Discussion Starter #3
This has a possibility of turning into a good discussion.

I'm not sure DL "invented " walking baseball. But, he wrote about It in his book.

As far as Rex is concerned: without writing a book. He " wrote the book on collar training.

Back in the early '80's ( maybe late '70's) there was a list of notes , force fetch , collar etc. that was hand written and circulated that I believe was some of Rex's notes. Rex was on the west coast and I was on the east. Also I had hunting dogs and was not " connected "

Before Mike Lardy gave everybody the "Inside Baseball training " It was very hard to get good information without being connected.

That's just one mans opinion. There are folks on here that can and maybe should expand on your topic.

Thank you,

Randy
Yes I think DL Walters was the first book that showed walking baseball.
Evan Graham credits walking baseball as the "brainchild of hall of fame trainer DL Walters" so I assumed he invented it?

I've always had the impression that Rex Carr invented many drills including water tune-ups, swimby, BB blinds?
I can not find these drills in any historical books except students of Rex Carr...

Thanks.
 

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Delmar Smith, Paul Shoemaker, Kapas, Cotton Pershall and Dave Elliot all brought something to the game that have advanced us and our ability to train dogs.
 

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Daniel, you are correct. I tried to address the OP's question of the two. There have been many that impacted our game.
 

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I have a little different perspective of what I think Rex Carr brought to the game...IMO he started a new way of teaching students to teach their dogs ..His students ranged from the games elite and wealthy, politicians, leaders of business and just some future brilliant AMATEUR dog trainers...those students in turn brought those methods to the masses, not always in the same manner in which it was dispersed but his original core of students/clients are probably more responsible for teaching a whole future generation on how to train dogs...

Major Carr was also a master at motivating and knew how to get maximum performance out of his students/clients...some needed kid gloves and some needed a firm "father figure type"...to quote Kris Kistofferson..." he was a walking contradiction, partly truth and partly fiction..."

to put it in Biblical terms...Major Carr gave the "Ten Commandments" of dog training to Moses and his disciples and they in turn brought it to the masses...and the world of dog training was changed forever

Rex Carr may not have invented collar training but he did inspire a whole ideology and philosophy toward dog training, that can't be measured by a drill or a technique

I know that Lanse told me that he went full circle with Rex and that he realized after all his travels and interactions with trainers from his first wife Dana, to guys like Dave Rorem, that Rex's original training and methods suited him the best...the other fact that is lost on many is that those original students trained in the days of a single intensity collar...not the multi frequency model that today's trainer has in their truck....the results and titles attained by Major Carr's students speak for themselves....
 

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Who invented the e collar? Who was the first national champ or really successful dog to have been trained via the e collar?
I would guess the most notable was August Belmont and NFC NAFC Super Chief...he was an original Rex Carr client/student
 

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Who invented the e collar? Who was the first national champ or really successful dog to have been trained via the e collar?
Not sure if its one of the first, but I have an old tritronics that has resistor plug you change to set the intensity on. Man that thing can get "hot".
 

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Keep the discussion going. Love the information you guys are giving out. And it's free.
 

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I would guess the most notable was August Belmont and NFC NAFC Super Chief...he was an original Rex Carr client/student
Do you know if most trainers--pros, amateurs, whatever--jumped on the collar bandwagon right away? Were there pros who refused to try the "new-fangled" device?

I think this was posted before here and many have probably read it. But for those who might not have read it, here is a Super Chief/August Belmont story from 1967 Sports Illustrated.

https://www.si.com/vault/1967/08/07/609408/revival-of-a-grand-old-name
 

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Do you know if most trainers--pros, amateurs, whatever--jumped on the collar bandwagon right away? Were there pros who refused to try the "new-fangled" device?

I think this was posted before here and many have probably read it. But for those who might not have read it, here is a Super Chief/August Belmont story from 1967 Sports Illustrated.

https://www.si.com/vault/1967/08/07/609408/revival-of-a-grand-old-name
The older pros for the most part were definitely anti-collar, the ones who did use the collar used it in an inefficient manner.

To the OP's original question about drills, some were already in use, Rex devised a systematic method of developing a conditioned response to e collar stimulation and in the corse designed drills to reinforce those lessons. When you talk about wagon wheel, the T and the double T, tuneup drill etc. those were definitely Rex's inventions or refinements of what someone else was doing without the systematic approach the he invented.

Rex had 2 clients who won National Amateurs before Augie and Soupy in 1967 and 1968
1962 FC-AFC Carr-Lab Hilltop, LM Glen B. Bump, Stockton, CA
1965 FC-AFC Rebel Chief Of Heber, LM Gus Rathert, Modesto, CA
There then followed a succession of NARC winners
1971 & 1973 Dee's Dandy Dude Michael Paterno Paulng NY
1981 Dude's Double or Nothin' Delma
Hazard Camden SC
1984 Trumarc's Zip Code Judith Wiekel Aycock Lewisville TX
1986 Winsome Cargo Cal Cadmus Oakdale CA
1987 Westwind Jemima Supercake Eva Proby Seattle WA


 

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Most of the older successful trainers didn't go to using the e-collar right away as the e-collar trained dogs could be identified readily by their piginess. They walked or trotted to the blinds and weren't very pleasing to the eye. It was sometime later that the multiple level collars came in to being and the e-collar program refined for better results. Rex Carr can't be credited with all of the drills invented but he did some and married them to e-collar training. Back 54 years ago when I started training retrievers we did lots of the things that were made into drills later. We did tennis shoe training and we just dealt with the problems when they cropped up. Doing drills as we do today we address those things before coming up in our training and it is a better way..
 

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Not sure if its one of the first, but I have an old tritronics that has resistor plug you change to set the intensity on. Man that thing can get "hot".
The first e-collar I used in the early 70's was very poor..It came from a **** hunter and the transmitter used the big square lantern battery and was not rechargeable..the next one was the gold tube from TT that only had a red button and it was like lighting in a bottle...That is the reason a lot of people didn't like the collar back then ...It was used as a punishment tool like the shot gun and cattle prod ...not very effective...It took a tough dog to handle the pressure if the trainer didn't learn how to nick real fast...There is no comparison to the ones of today...Steve S
 

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The problem still remains how to use the e-collar and behavioral conditioning/linking . How many here have taken a variable e-collar and strapped it on their calf and run thru all the various variables of "stimulations" to appreciate what a dog feels? Not against them but ignorant folks who think a button(s) teaches a dog.
 

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Discussion Starter #17
My original post was more about history of specific concept drills and
not about e-collars..that seemed to side-track this thread.

For example:

David Sanborn was the first trainer to use force-fetch in the 1880s with pointers.

In the 1940s, Dave Elliot (after observing sheep-herders use hand-signals)has been credited as
the first to introduce hand signals in British retriever trials.


DL Walters has been credited as the first to publish Walking Baseball in his 1970s book .

I could not find any books prior to Rex Carr era that published anything about water tuneup, bird boy blinds, or swim-by.
I assume these drills were first introduced to retriever trainers by Rex Carr? Did he invent these drills?
Is there any book published prior to Rex Carr that talk about water tuneup, bird boy blinds, or swim-by?
 

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The problem still remains how to use the e-collar and behavioral conditioning/linking . How many here have taken a variable e-collar and strapped it on their calf and run thru all the various variables of "stimulations" to appreciate what a dog feels? Not against them but ignorant folks who think a button(s) teaches a dog.
What do you think you will learn by shocking your calf with all levels on a collar as it relates to how a dog will react to stimulation on his neck?

Each dog is an individual and can react radically different from each
other to similar levels. That is one of the most important things to learn when we collar condition our dogs.
My own personal experience with my dogs ranged from a dog who ran on a high 2, to a dog that ran on a medium 5
As your calf can tell you that is a pretty big difference:)

A calf is different from a neck and a dog is different from a person.
They make e collars for horses. You might be surprised to learn how differently they react to different levels of electricity than a dog does
 

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My original post was more about history of specific concept drills and
not about e-collars..that seemed to side-track this thread.

For example:

David Sanborn was the first trainer to use force-fetch in the 1880s with pointers.

In the 1940s, Dave Elliot (after observing sheep-herders use hand-signals)has been credited as
the first to introduce hand signals in British retriever trials.


DL Walters has been credited as the first to publish Walking Baseball in his 1970s book .

I could not find any books prior to Rex Carr era that published anything about water tuneup, bird boy blinds, or swim-by.
I assume these drills were first introduced to retriever trainers by Rex Carr? Did he invent these drills?
Is there any book published prior to Rex Carr that talk about water tuneup, bird boy blinds, or swim-by?
From personal experience and the experience of others who had access to Rex several years before I did I feel comfortable in confirming that swim-by, bird boy blinds, and the tuneup drill were all innovations from the fertile dog training mind of Rex Carr.
 

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I had the wonderful experience of spending time with Rex and two of my great friends Jack G and Jim T. It was an eye opener for me because we had never used a collar. You had to train with him to maybe understand him. At that time I had a wonderful Chesapeake who passed away to soon but ran like a Lab. Every day after he watched her he would tell me what she would do before she would do it. In my 40 some years I have never meet a trainer like Rex. After leaving Rex I gave her to Wayne Curtis and she got sec in her first Q and the next weekend I WON the Q. For a Chesapeake back then that was unheard of. Thank you Rex and Wayne!
 
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