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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
How much of a difference,if any, positive or negative, is it to run 1st or 2nd in the first series of an AA stake.
 

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pheasants or ducks?
windy or calm?
direction of sun?
size of field?


The best answer is "It depends."

FOM
 

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I believe that it is usually a disadvantage to run early (first 10-15 dogs)

Wind is generally in judge's favor.
Lighting will get better as day progresses.
Scenting will improve (up to a point) as day progresses.
No read on test.

In my opinion, if you break an 60 dog AA field into quarters - in general

First 15 dogs worst position
Last 15 dogs next worst position (too much drag back)
Next to last 15 dogs next worst position
Second 15 dogs best

This situation worsens as the field increases in size as the judges start earlier and run later (leading to lighting issues for early and late dogs)

Add to this issue that most judges do their rotation

1 15 30 45

The dogs that ran early in the first series often run early in last series

There have been times when I won or placed running early, but I have found more often that my dogs do better in the second or third 25%

This is also why when I judge my rotation for 60 dog field would be

1 30 45 15
 

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The only thing I could think of would be tracking back to the retired guns may be better early. Maybe a long flyer that has a huge difference in the area of fall and the dog has less scent on the ground. Oh yeah, the headstart on the way home :(
 

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I pretty much agree with Ted and his numbers. I personally like run 15-25, it gives me time to study the test, see what dogs are doing on the test, create a game plan, mentally prepare and also call and make plans for the afternoon.

/Paul
 

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Well, if it's early, then you still have all day to go train if you're out!!! :wink:
 

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I agree with Ted on the rotation order. I don't quite agree with the the best time to run, though.

I generally think that the third quarter of dogs is the best group. The first is the roughest. The last is the next roughest and the second is the second easiest.

Guess who's running in the first handful this weekend? :evil:


John
 

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I don't really care all that much when I run. I've run early and then conditions changed for the better later, I've run late when conditions were better early. I primarily run in TX and OK, the weathermen are rarely correct and conditions can change in a hurry and often. If I had to make a choice, it would be in the middle somewhere, mainly so I can leave from home the morning of the trial.

Pete
 

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Pete Marcellus said:
I don't really care all that much when I run. I've run early and then conditions changed for the better later, I've run late when conditions were better early. I primarily run in TX and OK, the weathermen are rarely correct and conditions can change in a hurry and often. If I had to make a choice, it would be in the middle somewhere, mainly so I can leave from home the morning of the trial.

Pete
Amen brother...................

I could care less when I run. If I'm there early, I don't mind running first. But like you Pete, it's nice leaving later from home in your in the middle or towards the end. :wink:

To win a trial your dog usually puts together a close to perfect trial. If your relying on scent and various other conditions for your dogs to mark the birds, you probably ain't gonna win anyway.

Oh, and I can't stand a sandbagger.

Be there when it's time to run your dog. I wish some marshall's had enough sack to enforce the clock more often.
 

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Discussion Starter · #10 ·
Thanks for the responses.

I only competed in 4 trials last year so my experience is limited. In two of these trials the conditions got much worse( wind, rain etc) as the day went on and so did the work.

It is very helpful for me as I am sure it is for everyone else to see a half a dozen or so dogs run prior to me stepping to the line. It is the same number of dogs that I prefer to watch for marks and blinds at this stage. I would guess that as I get more experience the number of dogs that I need to see run will go down. I would think that I would need to see less dogs on the marks than on the blinds, but we will see.

I am less concerned about running early on the marks as I am running first on the blinds. My dog is doing the majority of the work :eek: on the marks. :wink: All I can do is help him to watch the birds go down, line him up and kick him off properly and hope for the best. However, on the blinds I need to watch several dogs to really formulate a game plan on a blind.

How many dogs do you prefer to watch before running? Is it different for the marks than it is for the blinds?
 

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I would rather watch dogs run the marks than watch dogs run the blinds.

On the blinds, you have control of your dog throughout.
On the marks, you only have control on the line.
There are more variables on the marks than on the blinds.

On the blinds, I would like to see 5 dogs run.
On the marks, I would like to see 10 dogs run.
 

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Ted Shih said:
I would rather watch dogs run the marks than watch dogs run the blinds.

On the blinds, you have control of your dog throughout.
.
Well, you are suspossed to..... :lol:
 

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lablover said:
Well, you are suspossed to..... :lol:
If you don't have control over your dog, it doesn't matter how many dogs you watch run.
 

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Discussion Starter · #14 ·
Ted Shih said:
I would rather watch dogs run the marks than watch dogs run the blinds.

On the blinds, you have control of your dog throughout.
On the marks, you only have control on the line.
There are more variables on the marks than on the blinds.

On the blinds, I would like to see 5 dogs run.
On the marks, I would like to see 10 dogs run.
Figures I had it backwards.......What is it that you like to look for in the marks and what would you change in the way you ran your dog on the marks after watching other dogs run? What are the variables that would cause you to change and what are you watching for besides the AOF etc.
 

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thunderdan said:
Ted Shih said:
I would rather watch dogs run the marks than watch dogs run the blinds.

On the blinds, you have control of your dog throughout.
On the marks, you only have control on the line.
There are more variables on the marks than on the blinds.

On the blinds, I would like to see 5 dogs run.
On the marks, I would like to see 10 dogs run.
Figures I had it backwards.......What is it that you like to look for in the marks and what would you change in the way you ran your dog on the marks after watching other dogs run? What are the variables that would cause you to change and what are you watching for besides the AOF etc.
Things that jump off the top of my head:

The candence of the call - how much time do I have between the birds being called by the judges

Are are the dead bird station throwers doing - they fresh arms throwing the marks longer, out there all day and throws getting shorter

How is the flier being thrown - ridden out or short.

Order of pick up - what is and isn't working

How is the tightness of guns affecting the work

I could go on, but those are some of the things that I immeditately key on...

FOM
 

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How many dogs do you prefer to watch before running? Is it different for the marks than it is for the blinds?
About what Ted said. On marks, you may see something that most of the dogs are doing that you may be able to help your dog overcome by a push or a pull at the line. I (and most judges I think) don't care much for excessive lining on a mark.

The same holds true for a blind, dogs may veer off course behind some obstacle such as cover, a rise, etc, that is not obvious from the line. It helps to see a few dogs run beforehand and be prepared for the unseen obstacle.

Good luck,

Pete
 

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To add to Lainee's list

- What are the successful dogs doing (order of pickup, lining of dog on mat)
- Are there issues of the judge distracting the dog when signalling (shadow, movement, etc)
- Are there any obstacles close to the mat that will kick a dog one way or another (weed, slope, stick, etc)
- Are the dogs winding the bird, if so, from where

I especially like to watch the pros to see how they are setting up their dogs, how they are lining their dogs on the mat, how they are sending their dogs (hand up, hand down, loud, soft)

I particularly like to watch the same pro run 3-4 dogs to see what adjustments they are making
 

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Heck, Ted - with as many bullets as you are shooting - you should figure those things out before the Pros.
 

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With another 13 bullets, I might be able to keep up with the A list pros in the Open ....

Now that would be a hoot!
 
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