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Discussion Starter · #1 · (Edited)
This morning it was hot. Our airconditioning went out yesterday afternoon. The "cool" haven was gone. It was in the upper 70's when we hit the field and will be 101°F this afternoon. The AC man is supposed to be here at 10 am. He is late and it is now 92°F.

However, we needed to be in the field early this morning. Therefore, to speed things up the dogs were "paired off" and run in tandem. The setup is called The Tandem "Semi-Chaos" Y-Drill and we were back in front of the house fans by 7:30 am.

"Semi-Chaos" Y-Drill (link)
 

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That was neat, Jim! A lot of skills in one drill - and it looked like all three of you got some exercise!

I was a little surprised at Taffy's hunt on the angle-in mark. Didn't watch it again to see if Kooley did the same. But what's the reason that would be a challenging mark? Common sense would say it would be easier because it's closer, but clearly the previous marks or the terrain are playing a part in making it difficult. Can you explain?

newbie regards,
Jennifer

P.S. What is your dog in the avatar bringing in? Looks like a sea turtle or a small helicopter...
 

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That is an awesome drill . I like how you are working multiple disciplines with the dogs like, remote send, honoring, steadying, marking, place command... I am sure I am missing some. Very nice!!!
 

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88 here today and humid with storms. Waiting for the weekend b/c supposed to be cooler???:)

Great job Jim. I do similar with send backs to the matt no pail on stick present. I call it a Christmas tree drill. Learned this from Lou Adams awhile back. I do angle back, straight across and angle in throws. Then I switch and throw out to the other side. My young pup not quite up to doing it yet with 2 dogs. Thanks for sharing and really nice.
 

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That was neat, Jim! A lot of skills in one drill - and it looked like all three of you got some exercise!

I was a little surprised at Taffy's hunt on the angle-in mark. Didn't watch it again to see if Kooley did the same. But what's the reason that would be a challenging mark? Common sense would say it would be easier because it's closer, but clearly the previous marks or the terrain are playing a part in making it difficult. Can you explain?

newbie regards,
Jennifer

P.S. What is your dog in the avatar bringing in? Looks like a sea turtle or a small helicopter...
Jennifer, angle-in throws are probably the hardest for a couple of reasons. 1) we typically condition our dogs to run deep by throwing a lot of angle back throws to condition them to run past a gun, there are a number of good drills to counteract this. 2) dogs like to run period and usually associate the gunner with the throw, so they typically want to run at least as far as the gun before setting up a hunt. I didn't look at the video but it sounds like a drill set up to create balance with in-throws as well as angle back and I expect square throws as well.

john

ps, a cool 37 degree morning warming to near 80 this afternoon, it's over 70 now at noon.
 

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P.S. What is your dog in the avatar bringing in? Looks like a sea turtle or a small helicopter...

Dog is carrying a Canada goose.
 

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Discussion Starter · #7 · (Edited)
I was a little surprised at Taffy's hunt on the angle-in mark. Didn't watch it again to see if Kooley did the same. But what's the reason that would be a challenging mark? Common sense would say it would be easier because it's closer, but clearly the previous marks or the terrain are playing a part in making it difficult. Can you explain?
From where I was standing, it was a bit perplexing. It appeared to be a simple mark. After watching the video, three things came to mind. The first two marks landed, cartwheeled and were visible from the line. It is a large black and white, flagged foam bumper. Her angle-in mark plopped into a pile of chopped grass, didn't bounce and disappeared. The line she took was a perfect trace of the initial, longer, angle back mark. When Taffey realized her mistake she switched into hunt mode and searched shorter. The penalty for not paying attention is having to hunt.

Taffey is 12, seen everything and I often cut her some slack. Therefore, I'd say Taffey was just "too casual" with that mark. Kooly didn't have that issue crop up. I did notice something "cool" about Kooly's run. He watched me move and adjusted his spine to line up with the side I was going to throw to on all three marks. When I ran the two younger dogs, there were no issues.

A video often offers up new and interesting perspectives.

late update, July 6th: After watching the video again, the bumper in Taffey's last mark did bounce once. Which feeds into my last comment. Sometimes you see only what you want to see.
 

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Thanks Jim. I knew it had to be something with the terrain or the pattern of long marks like John mentioned. A pile of dead grass would definitely do it. Can't believe Taffey is 12! She can still run and has a lot of fire! Very educational video, thanks a lot for sharing it!

And yes, Phil, I knew it was a Goose - just looked amazing that a dog can carry something that huge!

Jen
 

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What a great idea... I think I need to start training my dogs to return to a "place" marker so I can do drills like this too. Sure saves a ton of walking!

What are you using for your place board?
 

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Discussion Starter · #10 · (Edited)
With everything there is to teach an all age dog, send backs didn't make the cut, at least not for us.
That makes sense to me.

I've never bothered with the extra work of teaching my dog to return to the place board.
This could be looked at from another perspective (or two). First of all, my experience in using this technique is limited to the four dogs in my signature. Secondly, the amount of time teaching them this technique was not all that extensive (from my perspective). And any "lost time" is more than regained with less time needed for setting up training sessions. Afterall, I'm training alone and there are no other handlers and their dogs to run.

As far as getting into a conflict with the dog on send-backs, in my limited experience with these four dogs, there have been zero "issues" with them returning to the line and I'm talking about some distances (long) where the radio line was necessary. And most of all, I don't rush the process. I'm not in a hurry. Maybe it is because the process is slowly integrated into the program and I don't start doing "send backs" until the dog can run simple blinds. You definitely have to be committed to using them regularly.

My dogs are steady before doing "send backs" because early on I do a lot of "solo" walking singles with my pups which enhances the overall process. It has been easy (even though it may seem complicated and/or time consuming). However, as you stated, I have a different focus.

The above will support your conclusion. It all depends on the overall intentions of what the dog will be doing. Mine is to run some tests for measuring skill levels with the intentions of having an excellent dog to hunt with. I was (in my previous life) more compulsive about testing. I got over that. The present training/testing/hunting focus is more balanced....for me.
 

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Discussion Starter · #11 ·
Here is a pictorial progression of Daisy's "prep".

It begins with this. "Steady" on a remote place board and “here”.

”Daisy at 3 months old”


This is the early process. Teaching steady with distractions (other dogs retrieving).

”Daisy at 8 months old (middle dog/pup)”


This is the “stretch phase” after teaching “send backs”. Daisy ran these remote line singles (163, 196, 155, 123, 90 yards). She was cast back to the "place board" at the line after each mark. The gunner/BB (that would be me) stayed out in the field.

”Daisy at 12 months old”


These are three remote line ATV, “stickmen” field singles with a long up-the-slot mark run last (184, 249, & 394 yards). Daisy ran them right, left, middle and was cast back to the remote line "place board" after all three retrieves.

Daisy at 19 months old”
 

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Do you throw, have her bring the bumper back to you in the field and then go back to the place board?
 

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Jim,

Nice pics, setup and description of setup. Cool.
 

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after watching kwicklabs videos and reading his website, i implemented "send backs" in my training program. i do not have the luxury of having equipment or bird boy to throw all the time, so i started using this technique and it has been a great benefit to both me and the dog.
it has sped up training sessions where i can do pretty much any marking drill that i do without help but still get in some technical stuff such as cover, water, distance, angles, etc. it didn't take long to teach either. i line her up and command "place", and she takes off.
 

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Great drill. Two qestions - what drill do you use to initially teach the place command. And, in the video you walk out to the field with two dogs then send one back - first, why don't you just leave one on the mat when you start ? and if both dogs are at your side in the field what command do you give that lets a particular dog know you want THAT one to go to the mat. Thanks
 

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Nice job Jim! Looks like a good use of time with minimal equipment for maximum results
well done sir
 

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Discussion Starter · #18 · (Edited)
Two qestions - what drill do you use to initially teach the place command.
My pups are fed on a place board. That's when I passively introduce the "place" word. It is not a command (at first). Later on, they walk over them when loosely heeling and when on it, I just simply say "place". Most command words are imprinted passively when the pup is young.

As demonstrated in the picture with 3 month old Daisy, I continue with a bit more formal "sit" in kind of a game format. Soon after that I will chain "place" as they near the board with "sit" when on it. This is done while wearing a leash. Several years ago, I started doing this with Daisy's mother (Taffey).

During this game phase of passively introducing key words, I will have the pup "casting" back and forth between two place boards to a probable treat in a butter cup. "Over" and "back" are imprinted. They simply learn going to the placeboard is fun. The entire process is a function of bonding and having fun before formal training. The pup is not forced to do anything. Which in the long run builds the expectation that going to a place board is rewarding and more so that training is a great thing.

And, in the video you walk out to the field with two dogs then send one back - first, why don't you just leave one on the mat when you start?
I'm sure we could start that way. However, walking out together sends a message that we will be working together from the start and in a way neither is left out. In conjuction with this, I often train my four dogs off a chain gang. They watch the others work (or not).



If both dogs are at your side in the field what command do you give that lets a particular dog know you want THAT one to go to the mat.
This issue was a bit tricky at first. I will occasionally get a "loose" idea of doing something different. We did a few videos which were very funny in that I had a difficult time sorting that out. One dog was supposed to be in a hide and the other on a platform. We are responsive to each other and can fall back on known rules to deal with any situation that comes up. This keeps them more responsive and they put up with me. I got a big kick of how frustrated the handler was at the time (even though it was me). So what I do now is calmly bring the working dog to my side with their name and use a very quiet "heel/sit" and an almost whisper of "place". It is not fool proof.

Who Is on First? (YouTube)

I had a video of remote line work last summer where three were being sent back to the line doing individual water retrieves and I was amazed at how they seemed to know whose turn it was. The next dog often rotated up to the imaginary line, but they mostly just stayed where they sat and ran past the dog(s) in front (when necessary).

note: this video is "lengthy"
Three Dog Summer Maintenance (YouTube)
 
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