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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
Hey all,
I have a question about sending my pup on blinds. I have been sending her by name thus far, and wanted some input on how to proceed with sending on blinds. We have finished the FF process, and are doing pile work. So when she is sitting at heel, and I am sending her to a pile, should I continue to send her by name, or by Fetch? Further, as the process continues, on true/cold blinds, can I start by saying "dead bird" and send her by name?

Thanks,
 

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I've never sent a dog with his name on a blind. I transition to "over" and "back" instead of "fetch" during simple casting. I move right into simple casting following stick fetch. This is a seamless transition. Use a lot of body language on casts and revert to "fetch" if the dog doesn't immediately go on "back" or "over". Deal with any continued refusal with the ear pinch.

This is (as best I can remember) the Lardy TRT sequence. What program are you following? Does that program follow a different path?
 

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Good question....What does your training program suggest(sp)? I am assuming you are following one......:)
If he was following a program he wouldn't have to ask the question. Charlie, we typically cue marks by saying "mark" then release the dog with it's name, we cue blinds with "dead bird" and send with "back", at least that's what 90% of us do, the other 10% I don't know.

John
 

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You can send your pup on whatever signal you like, long as you're consistent and don't confuse the commands.
 

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If he was following a program he wouldn't have to ask the question. Charlie, we typically cue marks by saying "mark" then release the dog with it's name, we cue blinds with "dead bird" and send with "back", at least that's what 90% of us do, the other 10% I don't know.

John
Then I guess the program that he is following isn't quite clear on what he should do next...Right?...Or maybe he isn't....I am on the the side of the dog and not the would be handler. OK....Think about it.........;-) Dog first....Handler second. Dog has the Genetics....Trainer doesn't.;)

PS.....Read and reread the progression...It's not that hard. It sounds like the handlier is still in the basics.
 

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You can send your pup on whatever signal you like, long as you're consistent and don't confuse the commands.
Agreed. But you could also use the most widely used words and cues in retriever training as John described above. Although you can certainly use any word or cue that you want, I don't see why anyone would.
 

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Discussion Starter · #8 ·
I am following Smartworks, but am having difficulty understanding how he sends the dog on cold blinds. thanks for the comments all.
 

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I am following Smartworks, but am having difficulty understanding how he sends the dog on cold blinds. thanks for the comments all.

With Smartworks, dog is cued with "dead" or "dead bird", then sent on "back" for blinds. The dog is only sent on his name for marks.

IMO, it wouldn't be good to send a dog on a blind with his name. My thinking being that on a mark, he's being released with his name. On a blind he's being sent on back. Very different meanings that keep things more clear for the dog.
 

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I am following Smartworks, but am having difficulty understanding how he sends the dog on cold blinds. thanks for the comments all.
Charlie,

What Smartwork materials do you have? Rick C is correct per Smartwork procedure, but I would like to know what books and/or DVD's you have so I can refer you to the material you are having questions about.

Evan
 

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If your dog knows the "fetch" command and will retrieve to the pile on that command you can start saying "fetch-back" to transition to the "back" command. after a few days of "fetch-back" try just saying "back" the whole reasoning behind a different command for marks and a command for blinds is to let the dog know who's hunt it is. eventually with the "back" command the dog will be more aware that you are in control and to trust his handler.
 

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snip....

IMO, it wouldn't be good to send a dog on a blind with his name. My thinking being that on a mark, he's being released with his name. On a blind he's being sent on back. Very different meanings that keep things more clear for the dog.
I'm not trying to be argumentative here... either just being devil's advocate or wanting to continue the discussion. Right up front, I release my dog on both marks and blinds by his name. I cue the blind by saying "dead bird" then releasing him by his name. I realize that I am in the 10-20% minority that does it this way, but I frankly have never had a problem on blinds by doing this.

So, for arguement sake, do you (the collective you...not just Rick) really think that dogs process their release differently on marks and blinds or do they just get conditioned to whatever you use to release them. My dog has no problem responding just to the cue "dead bird" he knows then that he's going to be handled to a blind, whether it be a regular blind or if he has to ignore poison bird mark and go to a blind. Others have said just what Rick states, but I wonder.. do dogs really process their "commands" as being "released" or "sent", or do they just GO?

Just curious what everyone thinks.
 

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I'm not trying to be argumentative here... either just being devil's advocate or wanting to continue the discussion. Right up front, I release my dog on both marks and blinds by his name. I cue the blind by saying "dead bird" then releasing him by his name. I realize that I am in the 10-20% minority that does it this way, but I frankly have never had a problem on blinds by doing this.

So, for arguement sake, do you (the collective you...not just Rick) really think that dogs process their release differently on marks and blinds or do they just get conditioned to whatever you use to release them. My dog has no problem responding just to the cue "dead bird" he knows then that he's going to be handled to a blind, whether it be a regular blind or if he has to ignore poison bird mark and go to a blind. Others have said just what Rick states, but I wonder.. do dogs really process their "commands" as being "released" or "sent", or do they just GO?

Just curious what everyone thinks.
Mike I absolutely believe dogs process being released for a mark and being sent for a blind differently. I won't say that it is only because of saying name or saying back though. Your dead bird cue is likely what differentiates for your dog. I know more people that use back rather than name for both marks and blinds. It's the overall communication with the dog that lets them know mark vs blind.

Have you ever walked to the line, not given the dead bird cue, and just called the dogs name? If so, dud the dog go in a positive way like he does on blinds, or was he a little unsure and went in a more hunt-like manner?
 

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Mike I absolutely believe dogs process being released for a mark and being sent for a blind differently. I won't say that it is only because of saying name or saying back though. Your dead bird cue is likely what differentiates for your dog. I know more people that use back rather than name for both marks and blinds. It's the overall communication with the dog that lets them know mark vs blind.

Have you ever walked to the line, not given the dead bird cue, and just called the dogs name? If so, dud the dog go in a positive way like he does on blinds, or was he a little unsure and went in a more hunt-like manner?
Glen, I guess that's my point.... it's "dead bird" that cues the blind and that upon release, i.e., hearing his name, he's to go straight to where he's looking. With marks, he's going to obviously see something (well hopefully!!!), but again, is not to leave until released by his name. To me, a "release" is a "release" . The cue of seeing the birds means its a mark, of hearing "dead bird" and then being lined up to face it means it's a blind.

I do know for a fact that he "knows" its a blind as soon as I cue "dead bird". If I had trained him to be released by "back" on a blind, I'm sure he would go on back, but it never made any sense to me to use a different release on marks and blinds if the dog is already cued into the fact that it is a blind by using "dead bird". I'm not trying to change conventional methods, but the conventional just didn't make sense to me and what I do works just fine.

So now I'm just rambling.... am I making any sense... and does it really matter?
 

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I'll really throw a wrench into the works!:)

I FF'd using "Back" instead of "fetch"

I sent my first dog on Marks and Blinds with the command "Back"

I ran HRC tests for quite some time. I noticed when I was on the line, a Pro (who I consider a good friend of mine) would most always be either on the Honor bucket, or right behind me with one of his dogs.

I asked him one day, why that always seemmed to be the case..

He took me aside, and politly told me, that because I send on "back",, and because of my silly nerves ,, I Bellowed the command lowdly,,, No other handlers wanted to be anywhere near me when I ran!! The ones that were in the running order near me would often go to the Pro and ask him to swith places with them.
He has absolutly statues as far as steady dogs..

I was mortified.....(although he is a really fun guy to be at the line with):)
I worked very hard at not yelling my "back" command from that point on..
I was very self concious also, that because of my unorthidox send,, I could be affecting other dogs...

I now use the dogs name to send on marks,,, I use "dead" to cue the blind,, and then send on"back"

I FF using "Fetch"command..

My reason is prolly a silly one,, but I dont want to screw up another dog in a test with commands that may confuse,, so I now send in the orthadox way.

Gooser
 

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I am a HORRIBLE handler!:):)
Gooser
 

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Glen, I guess that's my point.... it's "dead bird" that cues the blind and that upon release, i.e., hearing his name, he's to go straight to where he's looking. With marks, he's going to obviously see something (well hopefully!!!), but again, is not to leave until released by his name. To me, a "release" is a "release" . The cue of seeing the birds means its a mark, of hearing "dead bird" and then being lined up to face it means it's a blind.

I do know for a fact that he "knows" its a blind as soon as I cue "dead bird". If I had trained him to be released by "back" on a blind, I'm sure he would go on back, but it never made any sense to me to use a different release on marks and blinds if the dog is already cued into the fact that it is a blind by using "dead bird". I'm not trying to change conventional methods, but the conventional just didn't make sense to me and what I do works just fine.

So now I'm just rambling.... am I making any sense... and does it really matter?
I think the parts I highlighted above is the difference. I was taught that we release on marks and send on blinds. This goes back to the force to the pile where the dog learned that he better launch with the word "back". So we are forcing on back. I compare releasing a dog on a mark as letting the arrow fly out of a fully drawn bow, a dog waiting to go on a mark is a dog with intent to retrieve just waiting for his name to take off. Blinds are more relating to force on back.

Thats not to say your way doesn't work as it clearly does, just a fine point of training that has been proven over the years to work well too.

John
 

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I'll really throw a wrench into the works!:)

I FF'd using "Back" instead of "fetch"

I sent my first dog on Marks and Blinds with the command "Back"

I ran HRC tests for quite some time. I noticed when I was on the line, a Pro (who I consider a good friend of mine) would most always be either on the Honor bucket, or right behind me with one of his dogs.

I asked him one day, why that always seemmed to be the case..

He took me aside, and politly told me, that because I send on "back",, and because of my silly nerves ,, I Bellowed the command lowdly,,, No other handlers wanted to be anywhere near me when I ran!! The ones that were in the running order near me would often go to the Pro and ask him to swith places with them.
He has absolutly statues as far as steady dogs..

I was mortified.....(although he is a really fun guy to be at the line with):)
I worked very hard at not yelling my "back" command from that point on..
I was very self concious also, that because of my unorthidox send,, I could be affecting other dogs...

I now use the dogs name to send on marks,,, I use "dead" to cue the blind,, and then send on"back"

I FF using "Fetch"command..

My reason is prolly a silly one,, but I dont want to screw up another dog in a test with commands that may confuse,, so I now send in the orthadox way.

Gooser
Great story Gooser, its easy to get tunnel vision when you're on line.
 

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Glen, I guess that's my point.... it's "dead bird" that cues the blind and that upon release, i.e., hearing his name, he's to go straight to where he's looking. With marks, he's going to obviously see something (well hopefully!!!), but again, is not to leave until released by his name. To me, a "release" is a "release" . The cue of seeing the birds means its a mark, of hearing "dead bird" and then being lined up to face it means it's a blind.

I do know for a fact that he "knows" its a blind as soon as I cue "dead bird". If I had trained him to be released by "back" on a blind, I'm sure he would go on back, but it never made any sense to me to use a different release on marks and blinds if the dog is already cued into the fact that it is a blind by using "dead bird". I'm not trying to change conventional methods, but the conventional just didn't make sense to me and what I do works just fine.

So now I'm just rambling.... am I making any sense... and does it really matter?
John's post regarding force on back makes me wonder how you did FTP and other force on back steps?

Typical sequence with dog in front finish position is "back" - nick as dog is turning - "back".

Do you use the word back when handling on a blind after the initial send or do you say the dogs name again as you cast if you want a verbal cast?
 

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John's post regarding force on back makes me wonder how you did FTP and other force on back steps?

Typical sequence with dog in front finish position is "back" - nick as dog is turning - "back".

Do you use the word back when handling on a blind after the initial send or do you say the dogs name again as you cast if you want a verbal cast?
See, that's actually where I find using "back" as a release to be confusing (to me...) because in handling to blinds I strive to get a square front finish position and the verbal command for going straight back is "back" (when I need a verbal...). Back means "turn around and go back" as opposed to being released to run a blind. When running the T or FTP, the release was dog's name, and command for going straight back after a stop is "back".

It's just my way of thinking about it and seems to have worked for the two dogs I've trained. I'm not trying to influence anyone to do it my way... just always wonder why other's do it differently except "that's the way it's always been done".

Similarly, I don't hold my hand over my dog's head. I kinda lean over his head, lining up body first as the macro-adjust and then sighting down his muzzle as the micro adjust. this is just what works for me.....
 
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