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Hugh Arthur told me at a trial 8yrs ago and I haven't forgotten " Rin Tin Tin can't go long twice and check down short" that holds true in most cases but as Dennis V said earlier never say never when you are in a trial situation. I have heard Lardy say multiple times watch the last 5-10 dogs in front of you if you can, don't think your dog is that much better than the ones that have just ran. If they are not having success on a test try something else and take a chance, if the dogs in front of you are having success don't try to reinvent the wheel. Seems like my luck I'm always in the first five dogs to run so I end up running a test the way I train on it. I have stepped out of the box so to speak and been the one to break a string of bad jobs by trying something different, that has gone both ways on more than one test. Kind of like Babe Ruth you don't hit home runs swinging for doubles but you strike out alot also.
CB
 

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While all of these varied training stratagies have merit (I was weaned on first bird selection but abandoned it years ago) there is simply no sure fire never fail method for getting the short bird other than having an excellent marker and even those miss the difficult short retired pheasant from time to time. As with most things sometimes it helps to have a little luck on your side too. Whatever method you choose as a trainer you should be consistent lest you confuse the hell out of your dog and you too. I am not clever or bright enough to experiment on gameday so I generally try to do things in competition the way we do them in training........lifer second bird selector that I am.
 

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Nothing new to report to my knowledge, no revelation. Both methods involve taking the last bird thrown first. With secondary or second bird selection the handler typically chooses the shortest bird next, with ideal selection the dog gets the bird it wants second. There are advantages for both methods, second bird selection demands consistent use to be effective. For me second bird selection is the method of choice because it seems to make more sense to me, others may disagree.
 

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Nothing new to report to my knowledge, no revelation. Both methods involve taking the last bird thrown first. With secondary or second bird selection the handler typically chooses the shortest bird next, with ideal selection the dog gets the bird it wants second. There are advantages for both methods, second bird selection demands consistent use to be effective. For me second bird selection is the method of choice because it seems to make more sense to me, others may disagree.
I like secondary selection and it works well for us in training. However, in 3 of the last several trials, she is going for the long retired second no matter what I do with her at the line. She has stepped on it 3/3 times but her marking on shorter middle retired suffers and she has only picked it up successfully 1/3 times.
 

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I like secondary selection and it works well for us in training. However, in 3 of the last several trials, she is going for the long retired second no matter what I do with her at the line. She has stepped on it 3/3 times but her marking on shorter middle retired suffers and she has only picked it up successfully 1/3 times.
I have known more than one excellent marker who want the long bird second and get it successfully often when it is the most difficult bird. For me it would present a difficult choice, continue to second bird select in training or abandon it and capitalize on what appears a strength and allow her to get the bird she wants with the thought that eventually the short bird marking will improve.
 

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I was texting with Sylvia last night and this is what she and Judy recommends. Hence, that is exactly what I’m going to do. Thank you for reinforcing the good advice.
Given the information I have, which isn’t much, that seems the more sensible approach with plenty of upside and very little downside, good luck and keep us informed as there are other dogs out there much like yours. It is generally more prudent to paddle with the current than to try to paddle against it.
 

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Here is Dave Rorem's Retriever News Article on Ideal Selection.

I am not putting any words in Dave Rorem's mouth but this is what I have learned from him.

In my 4 years living in North Dakota, 2017 to 2021, I trained with Dave several times a summer and had many in depth conversations about "Ideal Selection" and how to train on it, getting the short bird last. There are many misconceptions and misunderstandings of how Dave trains on this.

First, he does not ALWAYS get the short bird last. Also, I have never seen him require a dog to get the short bird last when another longer memory bird was on the ground. Instead, he sets his tests up to work on this. An example would be, shoot a long retired single. Then shoot a double, short retired, then longer flier, dog gets the flier, then the short retired, short bird last. A short retired bird is also the only bird I've seen Dave repeat in training, because he believes they are so important and difficult.

Second, he does practice secondary selection at times to make sure his dogs are comfortable doing it in the situation he runs a test he feels it is necessary to pick it up that way and allowing the dog to select the long bird would be detrimental.

Lastly, the main reason he believes getting the short bird last in training is the best way to teach short retired birds, is that he believes that by getting it 2nd and then running a long bird after the short, you will erode or erase the lesson the dog learned about the short bird. He wants to put the dog up on succeeding on the short bird, not running back past it to a long bird.

I did this with my dog, who was terrible at SR birds, and he improved tremendously, it is how I train now.
 

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A well placed short retired bird especially in front of a flyer or standout long gun is deadly. In a large trial, a short retired can be fickle because wind changes can give it away. The hardest short retired to me is out in the field with something in the foreground (a hay bale or bush) to divert the dog away from a straight line to the bird. This requires a send and then a correction by the dog to get to the right area. Also slower dogs have an advantage as they are in the scent cone longer than a fast moving dog. This type of test usually eliminates my dog try as hard as I might at a trial. It takes a special dog to get the short retired in front of a long gun on a steadily successful basis. I train on secondary selection but don't fight at the trial. Usually this results in a crapshoot of whether I can get the short retired.
 

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I have had several conversations with David about this subject and I still don't pretend to entirely grasp his rationale. However, I think - in part - his rationale is this

1) If you want to win, you must be flexible
2) There are times in trials - and particularly in Nationals, where you will see quads, with two flyers and hen pheasant retired birds - where you must be able to go long twice, then come back for the short retired birds (or go long, short, long, short depending on the layout of the birds)
3) You want a dog that is comfortable picking up the birds in whatever sequence is appropriate
4) If a dog is only able to pick up the birds ... short, long, longer ... it won't be very successful if it is necessary to dig up the long bird before the short bird
5) So, you want to train your dog to be flexible in the manner in which it picks up the birds
There is no statement in this quote that has any definitive suggestions or answers to anything remotely related to the question. If and where but maybe could be possible could happen could be if you are flexible possibly to be successful then maybe to sequence to where you might see a sign that could possibly be a out of order quad
 

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I believe I saw a clip of Pat Burns talking about "Baby" (FC AFC Lock Fives Got Her Blue Genes On) after she was Top Amateur dog last year. I am majorly summarizing (and maybe remembering incorrectly) what he said but if I recall it was something like.... she always knew which bird she wanted next and they tried to "train" her out of it. And make her pick up what they wanted. And she wasn't as successful. So when they let her just do her thing... it seemed to work better. And 182 AA pts to show for it.

Hopefully I am sort of remembering that clip correctly.
 

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I believe I saw a clip of Pat Burns talking about "Baby" (FC AFC Lock Fives Got Her Blue Genes On) after she was Top Amateur dog last year. I am majorly summarizing (and maybe remembering incorrectly) what he said but if I recall it was something like.... she always knew which bird she wanted next and they tried to "train" her out of it. And make her pick up what they wanted. And she wasn't as successful. So when they let her just do her thing... it seemed to work better. And 182 AA pts to show for it.

Hopefully I am sort of remembering that clip correctly.
Sure, I think we’re all hoping to have a dog that can do it like that.
 

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The road to the titles of NFC/NAFC, FC/AFC is littered with the
carcasses of handlers who tried to outsmart their dogs rather
than recognizing their dog's native abilities & improving them.
 
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Just a quick addendum to this thread: I just watched Pat Burns interviewing Judy Aycock this week and she discussed primary selection. She said Rex Carr believed this was a training technique that could be used on some dogs as an additional means of instilling control and discipline. While it might work with some dogs, she said it backfired for many dogs and people because it isn't a technique suitable for every dog or every trainer.

I really enjoyed it when she talked about the difference between training Raider (? I think that is who she said) and her dual champion Punt. Something she said that struck me was a trainer should try to walk in the dog's shoes--I love that as a way of saying train the dog in front of you.
 
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