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Question....Indented triple with a short retired that hip pockets a long flyer with a stand out go bird on the opposite side. If we are training ideal selection the idea is to pick up the short bird last. If the dog decides it wants to pick it up second, would you call back and resend for the longer bird ? Handle to the longer bird or let the dog have the short retired?
 

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Question....Indented triple with a short retired that hip pockets a long flyer with a stand out go bird on the opposite side. If we are training ideal selection the idea is to pick up the short bird last. If the dog decides it wants to pick it up second, would you call back and resend for the longer bird ? Handle to the longer bird or let the dog have the short retired?
See post #130
 

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See post #130
Thanks Daren.
It was this passage from Rorem's article that caught my attention. Made me think that perhaps the mechanics of it might be different than what you experienced when training with him.

"We started the teaching process by making Scout get the short bird last and it was a very slow process. He failed at doing the short bird last for about the next 4-5 weeks. Then a significant change started to happen. We noticed that Scout started looking back at the short retired bird sometimes before we sent for the go-bird and then when he was coming back in from the go-bird. He was starting to think about that bird a lot but Rex still insisted that we leave it until last even if he wanted it second, because it was going to imprint him even more and he would become very good at that type of bird"

For me this gives the impression that it was set up as a triple (perhaps wrongly so) and not a long retired single and then a double with a short retired and a longer flyer.
If it is indeed a triple, how would Rex/Rorem insist the dog pickup the short retired last if he wanted it second?
 

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Thanks Daren.
It was this passage from Rorem's article that caught my attention. Made me think that perhaps the mechanics of it might be different than what you experienced when training with him.

"We started the teaching process by making Scout get the short bird last and it was a very slow process. He failed at doing the short bird last for about the next 4-5 weeks. Then a significant change started to happen. We noticed that Scout started looking back at the short retired bird sometimes before we sent for the go-bird and then when he was coming back in from the go-bird. He was starting to think about that bird a lot but Rex still insisted that we leave it until last even if he wanted it second, because it was going to imprint him even more and he would become very good at that type of bird"

For me this gives the impression that it was set up as a triple (perhaps wrongly so) and not a long retired single and then a double with a short retired and a longer flyer.
If it is indeed a triple, how would Rex/Rorem insist the dog pickup the short retired last if he wanted it second?
I think you may have over analyzed intent, no one would discourage a dog from getting a short retired bird in favor of a flyer, I wish my dogs had that preference but few dogs do. I dislike labels for things, with the vast majority of dogs you should get the bird the dog selects. Having them be flexible for the occasion when doing something different is useful but not necessary to have a successful dog.
 
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Just a quick addendum to this thread: I just watched Pat Burns interviewing Judy Aycock this week and she discussed primary selection. She said Rex Carr believed this was a training technique that could be used on some dogs as an additional means of instilling control and discipline. While it might work with some dogs, she said it backfired for many dogs and people because it isn't a technique suitable for every dog or every trainer.

I really enjoyed it when she talked about the difference between training Raider (? I think that is who she said) and her dual champion Punt. Something she said that struck me was a trainer should try to walk in the dog's shoes--I love that as a way of saying train the dog in front of you.
Discussing primary selection with a good friend that ran as an amateur under Farmer for years, he made the comment that of the dogs he had witnessed that could primary select reasonably well, they were almost all bitches, not males.
I thought that was interesting.
 

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Discussing primary selection with a good friend that ran as an amateur under Farmer for years, he made the comment that of the dogs he had witnessed that could primary select reasonably well, they were almost all bitches, not males.
I thought that was interesting.
I have known Danny since he was a young pro with 4 dogs. I’m glad his memory is that good because we all abandoned first bird selection more than 30 years ago. The absolute king of first bird selectors was NAFC-FC Trumarc’s Zip Code who was flawless, not so his half brother and housemate FC-AFC Trumarc’s Hot Pursuit😀
 
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I have known Danny since he was a young pro with 4 dogs. I’m glad his memory is that good because we all abandoned first bird selection more than 30 years ago. The absolute king of first bird selectors was NAFC-FC Trumarc’s Zip Code who was flawless, not so his half brother and housemate FC-AFC Trumarc’s Hot Pursuit😀
Ha .... I had to do a search as to what you meant as "first bird" / "primary" selection just to be clear I understood what you are saying.
Suppose I could have simply asked.
Seems that the definitions are not entirely universal. That doesn't help when the water is muddied enough as it is.

Another interesting thread regarding selection.

Selection vs Non Selection

As to Mr. Farmer's memory my friend was speaking of his own observations while an amateur under Farmer. He wasn't saying that was Farmer's opinion, or not.
 

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Ha .... I had to do a search to clarify what you meant as "first bird" / "primary" selection just to be clear I understood what you are saying.
Suppose I could have simply asked.
Seems that the definitions are not entirely universal. That doesn't help when the water is muddied enough as it is.

Another interesting thread regarding selection.

Selection vs Non Selection

As to Mr. Farmer's memory my friend was speaking of his own observations while an amateur under Farmer. He wasn't saying that was Farmer's opinion, or not.
The same procedure but different nomenclature, I think first bird selection is more definitive and less subject to interpretation, we do also call secondary selection second bird selection, again more descriptive I think but then what do I know😳
 
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