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Another interesting aspect of the difference in AKC rules for AKC events. In hunt tests, professional trainers can judge. In fact, a couple of weeks ago two admired, popular hunt test professional trainers talked about their decision to try to give back more to the sport by judging more. They view judging as not only giving back to the sport but a means to help grow the sport. Smart guys! If you help grow the sport, then your skills as a pro trainer will be even more in demand.

I wonder what the respective organizations representing the various retriever breeds think about pros judging field trials. Might be interesting to hear what the Labrador Retriever Club of America, the golden club, plus the other retriever/IWS clubs think about it.

I wonder why the AKC allows pros to judge hunt tests but not field trials. It would be interesting to hear from some AKC delegates on the issue. Most of them probably don't even know about the issue because the AKC board and decision-makers are mostly conformation people.

It is sad the AKC allows very little representation from the field sports people.
We are unique, because of the forward thinking of pioneers in the retriever field trial world we are self governing and make our own rules, the AKC just follows along.
 

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Having Pro's judge is a good idea and has successfully happened in Canada due to their smaller judging pool and with some safeguards seems to work well. The pro's I have seen judge are in the Ontario circuit, Ontario is a very large providence, but it is still one circuit
 

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We are unique, because of the forward thinking of pioneers in the retriever field trial world we are self governing and make our own rules, the AKC just follows along.
WOW. Is that because of the millionaires (who in this day and age would be billionaires) who participated in the sport at the beginning? I know plenty of the presidents and mucky-mucks of the AKC in the early days up until about World War II were field people who also showed in conformation.

Do pro field trial trainers charge a bonus for winning big events? For instance, on their rate cards/contracts, pro conformation handlers will set a certain rate for winning at certain levels. For instance, one of my conformation dogs went BIS and it triggered an extra $1,000 I had to pay above and beyond the regular handling fee plus the travel expenses.

That is why I had to eventually pull the dog from the show ring--I was afraid he would go BIS again and I couldn't afford it.😀
 

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one of my conformation dogs went BIS and it triggered an extra $1,000 I had to pay above and beyond the regular handling fee plus the travel expenses.
The more I learn about conformation the stranger it sounds.
 
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Get the popcorn !
So #103 it’s not a fair debate! Dr Ed has had more titled dogs than I ve raised and likely you’ ve raised He s been in the sport since there was mud on a bumper and brings knowledge and Ft tradition ( history) and respect to any conversation. And sorry but you just don’t know and it appears you haven’t tried to learn
You clearly don’t understand. The ft side writes the rules for the AKC via the RAC (Retriever Advisory Committee) and has since the beginning . The AKC makes the rules for the ht sport. So a big difference. And I don’t give a fat rats ass about how confirmation
Does a darn thing.
Your just wrong man !
Lordy it just gets to me when the unknowing keep blabbering
Grandpa said Sonny boy if your digging yourself a hole be smart enough to know when to stop digging. I can only hope you lay the shovel down.
Here goes !
 

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Get the popcorn !
So #103 it’s not a fair debate! Dr Ed has had more titled dogs than I ve raised and likely you’ ve raised He s been in the sport since there was mud on a bumper and brings knowledge and Ft tradition ( history) and respect to any conversation. And sorry but you just don’t know and it appears you haven’t tried to learn
You clearly don’t understand. The ft side writes the rules for the AKC via the RAC (Retriever Advisory Committee) and has since the beginning . The AKC makes the rules for the ht sport. So a big difference. And I don’t give a fat rats ass about how confirmation
Does a darn thing.
Your just wrong man !
Lordy it just gets to me when the unknowing keep blabbering
Grandpa said Sonny boy if your digging yourself a hole be smart enough to know when to stop digging. I can only hope you lay the shovel down.
Here goes !
I think J. is a woman.... and I think she is really trying to learn more about the FT world - not making comparisons (better vs worse) between conformation and field - nor start any kind of debate? Sounded to me like she was surprised to hear that the RAC is in charge of FT rules....... She has posted a lot of historical stuff here, as of late. Which I enjoy.
 

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Discussion Starter · #108 ·
.......The ft side writes the rules for the AKC via the RAC (Retriever Advisory Committee) and has since the beginning . The AKC makes the rules for the ht sport. So a big difference.
Well.........
Technically the AKC stole the hunt test rules from the NAHRA Field Test regulations and guidelines. The first summer all they did was slap a new cover on the booklet. That is their hunt test beginning.
 

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I think J. is a woman.... and I think she is really trying to learn more about the FT world -
When I became a FT'er in the early 60's there were a few DC's & efforts made to put a
DC on the title page. I think it made people more conscious of a lab looking like a lab.
Most FT specimens look like a Lab should look due to the rigors of competition & the
resultant capability of breakdown.

Like all breeds that were also working dogs: Cockers, Irish Setters as examples, the desire
to be different created a specimen of Lab unsuited for their original purpose. Thankfully, the
original folks in this sport were prescient.

Most folks today know what a Lab should look like.
 

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Well.........
Technically the AKC stole the hunt test rules from the NAHRA Field Test regulations and guidelines. The first summer all they did was slap a new cover on the booklet. That is their hunt test beginning.
Not true, I knew two people recruited by Nelson Sills to write the AKC Hunt Test Rules and obviously much was plagiarized from Field Trial Rules and Standard Procedures for Retrievers
 

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I apparently am having difficulty writing clearly enough to convey my questions, which are posed mostly out of curiosity and a genuine interest in retriever history. My interest is in all retrievers and ALL their history, whether field trials, conformation, agility, health, temperament, hunting, search and rescue (my-hopefully-soon-to-be-pregnant gal has a litter brother who is certified as a search and rescue cadaver dog).

The millionaires I was referring to in my post are millionaires who were also involved in field trials (pointing and retriever), AKC conformation shows, and establishing and holding office in the AKC. There were several millionaire gentlemen who were involved in writing AKC rules and regulations before the first World War and World War II. They were mostly located on the East coast and had the facilities, finances, skills, and the time to nurture and lead the AKC, including writing many of the early rules. I mean the rules in place before World War II.

I also understand the internet is a "my ribbon is bigger than your's place." So, my apologies if I have offended anyone or somehow conveyed the thought that I was calling anyone out. And my apologies if you have inferred from my post that I was somehow criticizing anyone. I was not.

Good Luck in your endeavors.
 

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I apparently am having difficulty writing clearly enough to convey my questions, which are posed mostly out of curiosity and a genuine interest in retriever history. My interest is in all retrievers and ALL their history, whether field trials, conformation, agility, health, temperament, hunting, search and rescue (my-hopefully-soon-to-be-pregnant gal has a litter brother who is certified as a search and rescue cadaver dog).

The millionaires I was referring to in my post are millionaires who were also involved in field trials (pointing and retriever), AKC conformation shows, and establishing and holding office in the AKC. There were several millionaire gentlemen who were involved in writing AKC rules and regulations before the first World War and World War II. They were mostly located on the East coast and had the facilities, finances, skills, and the time to nurture and lead the AKC, including writing many of the early rules. I mean the rules in place before World War II.

I also understand the internet is a "my ribbon is bigger than your's place." So, my apologies if I have offended anyone or somehow conveyed the thought that I was calling anyone out. And my apologies if you have inferred from my post that I was somehow criticizing anyone. I was not.

Good Luck in your endeavors.
I certainly did not detect anything controversial about your inquiry and as to the influence of the ultra wealthy in the early years you are on target. The most competitive retrievers came from kennels owned by wealthy people and trained by their private trainers. Not until the 1940s did regular Joe emerge and even then the influence of the Eastern elite was strong and continued, albeit in a diminishing way, for many years.

The best historians of retriever field trials still living are Carolyn McCreesh and Jack Unbehaun (who used to frequent these pages). Compared to them I am barely a rookie historian and not a very good one.
 

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Discussion Starter · #115 ·
I think you are confusing AKC with UKC, Ken.-Paul
Not true, I knew two people recruited by Nelson Sills to write the AKC Hunt Test Rules and obviously much was plagiarized from Field Trial Rules and Standard Procedures for Retrievers
The first summer of hunt tests were NAHRA Field Tests with NAHRA regulations. Partnering with AKC for the registration part. The second summer AKC went and put an AKC cover on the NAHRA book. And that same second summer Omar and a group went to the UKC because that had the coonhound registration set up.
NAHRA has never had it's own registry.
The original regs were put together by Wolters and his group. Ned Spear was the lawyer in the group and they finalized it here in Vermont at the after party at our Field Trial. That is why the mailing address for NAHRA was Ned's office in alburgh Vermont for years.
I have both the first and second year books.
And many more.
AKC did not even take NAHRA off several pages. Its kinda funny.
 

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The original regs were put together by Wolters and his group. Ned Spear was the lawyer in the group and they finalized it here in Vermont at the after party at our Field Trial. That is why the mailing address for NAHRA was Ned's office in alburgh Vermont for years.
I have both the first and second year books.
And many more.
AKC did not even take NAHRA off several pages. Its kinda funny.
Dick Wolters found out somehow that I had run my first curly-coat in a couple of picnic and sanctioned field trials. He contacted me to ask my opinion, as a rare retriever breed owner, whether I would be interested in the hunt test movement. I remember Ned Spears sent me a letter too. I believe they were trying to get as many people on board as possible before the launch of hunt tests.

Green Bay Packers President Mark Murphy said about QB Aaron Rodgers: "He's a complicated fellow." That is how I would describe Wolters from my interactions with him. :)
 

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I think J. is a woman.... and I think she is really trying to learn more about the FT world - not making comparisons (better vs worse) between conformation and field - nor start any kind of debate? Sounded to me like she was surprised to hear that the RAC is in charge of FT rules....... She has posted a lot of historical stuff here, as of late. Which I enjoy.
Ditto, Tobi. But we also should point out to J.Marti that it's RAC uber alles for retriever trials (while also reiterating DrEdA's bon mot about the AKC going along with whatever the RAC deigns) but that other FTs and regs under AKC aegis - pointing dogs, spaniels, dachshunds - are what the various breed clubs amongst those ranks decide upon. Thus you've got a National Field Champion Gordon setter, or NFC Vizsla, or NFC German shorthair, or "Absolute" FTCh winning miniature dachsie, etc. Just happy here that the RAC in the name of unity and all comers can continue to hold serve--

MG
 

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Dick Wolters found out somehow that I had run my first curly-coat in a couple of picnic and sanctioned field trials. He contacted me to ask my opinion, as a rare retriever breed owner, whether I would be interested in the hunt test movement. I remember Ned Spears sent me a letter too. I believe they were trying to get as many people on board as possible before the launch of hunt tests.

Green Bay Packers President Mark Murphy said about QB Aaron Rodgers: "He's a complicated fellow." That is how I would describe Wolters from my interactions with him. :)
In 1965 Wolters attended the Montana State Retriever Trial. His traveling apparatus was a Ford 3/4 ton with a camper.
Rather than Dually's he had very large rear tires. He ran his somewhat over 2 YO dog as Test Dog in the Derby. Other
than his constant put down of FT's there was not much else memorable. As one person said "He probably got a dose
of what all of us put up with". There was so little there I could not tell you if he had companions beyond the dogs.

NFC Baird's Centerville Sam was trained by his whistle methods, When Sorenson got Sam it took nearly a year to train
Sam conventionally.
 

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In 1965 Wolters attended the Montana State Retriever Trial. His traveling apparatus was a Ford 3/4 ton with a camper.
Rather than Dually's he had very large rear tires. He ran his somewhat over 2 YO dog as Test Dog in the Derby. Other
than his constant put down of FT's there was not much else memorable. As one person said "He probably got a dose
of what all of us put up with". There was so little there I could not tell you if he had companions beyond the dogs.

NFC Baird's Centerville Sam was trained by his whistle methods, When Sorenson got Sam it took nearly a year to train
Sam conventionally.
Marvin you have an exceptional memory pr you take really really great notes. Either way I enjoy reading your posts from the past.
 
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