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If you run the Blind before running the two marks, then is it allowable to place the blind between t

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If a testing situation is set up where the blind is placed center field and there is a gun station to both the left and right of the blind position shooting internally towards the line of the blind, is it legal/ethical to set up such a placement for the blind if the blind is run first?
 

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I can't answer the question as a judge or as a rule-interpreter.

But as a dog trainer/handler, I can tell you -- a blind between marks is a blind between marks, regardless if it is run before the marks or after.
 

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If the blind is run as an independent series before the marks are even set up then I interpret it to be OK. As an example you have limited water, so you run all the dogs on the water blind, do callbacks and then set up and run the marks its kosher.
 

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I may be confusing HRC and AKC rules, but I do not believe that a blind is allowed to be placed between marks in either venue in the mid-levels during the same set-up. Master and Finished it is OK.

AKC rules:
"Section 3. Senior Hunting Test. Dogs shall be tested in a minimum of four hunting situations that shall include one land blind, one water blind (that may be run as a double blind on land and water), one double land mark, and one double water mark. There shall be at least one diversion shot and at least one of the hunting situations should include a walk-up. In Senior tests, a double mark is defined as two marks presented before the dog is sent to retrieve. Blinds shall not be run between marks in Senior Hunting Tests."
 

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This subject came up in a recent judging seminar I attended. The AKC rep said it was OK if the blind was run before the marks were thrown. The marks could have no influence on the blind.

Russ
 

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Russ, wouldn't you interpret the presence of the gun stations as placing the blind between the marks? I'd guess if the blind were run with no gun stations in the field, it might be okay.

Christine
 

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I'd say between the marks is between the marks. I agree with Kevin. The ground scent accosiated with 40+ birds set out in between the marks would be a sizable diversion, and while different from the blind after the marks (no old 'fall') it is pretty close to the same thing in my book. I say leave the marking test alon, run the blind outside the marks (before or after makes no difference to me though I have noticed more and more judges running at least the water blind before the water marks and have had more than one tell me they were trying to thin the field to speed up the water marks, which I don' think works by the way.)
 

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Christine,
The AKC rep said if you run the blind before the marks are down it is not considered running the blind between the marks because the marks have no influence. I do not think it is against the rules to run a blind between two blinds with gunners in them at a location where no marks are thrown.

I think it is legal. I would not personally do it myself.

Russ
 

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Russ,

"By the book" I think I agree with you -- it is legal and the AKC Rep is correct. A mark is a mark -- "a bird seen thrown." HOWEVER.....

What handlers are also dealing with are scent areas, drag-back, wind direction, changes in terrain and cover.

Sure! The dog did not see marks thrown. But that is just one factor challenging me to get my dog from point A to point B. There are still alot of other factors -- between the marks is between the marks regardless if the dog sees a bird thrown.

Dear Judges, unless you have a huge Senior entry you need to cut down in order to finish on time, or you have no other choice because of grounds, do us a favor and save this for Master. Thank you.
 

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Last year I ran in a SH test where the land blind (run after the marks) ran about 10 yards behind the live bird station. Needless to say, this was very difficult for the senior dogs (but the blind was OUTSIDE the marks).

Christine
 

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I ran a senior test like this last year and yes it was explained to us that his was legal accorded to AKC rules before we ran the test. The test work fine till half way through the test the wind changed. 16 dogs call back to the water, wind changed on dog number 8. 7 of the last 8 dogs failed the test. The judge?s explanation was if the blind was run before the marks there were no marks.
 

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As a judge and handler I don't like to see it. The marks might not influence the blind but that same blind sure the heck will influence the marks.

Not kosher technically in my book.

Angie
 

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Angie B said:
As a judge and handler I don't like to see it. The marks might not influence the blind but that same blind sure the heck will influence the marks.

Not kosher technically in my book.

Angie
Ditto.

In Master the dog is being tested more stringently on his marking & has to deal with factors that will penalize the dog getting into an area he shouldn't be-i.e. outside the AOF.

If a Senior dog gets to the AOF & hunts showing real perseverance trying to come up with the bird he shouldn't be penalized if he widens his hunt (within reason). He should have the opportunity to hunt if necessary. Front footing is wonderful, but so is a credible hunt. If you've run a blind between the marks & he ends up in the area of the blind where 40+ birds have been as well as dragback-I think you're doing the Senior dog a disservice.

It's legal by the books, but why would you want to set that up?

M
 

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Initially and technically I voted this to be legal. (if gun stations are not out) But as Miriam has pointed out, it is an injustice to the newly running SH dogs, and therefore an injustice. Since we are judging to a standard, we are looking for the minimal requirements at this level, should a finished SH be able to do this test regardless of placement and timing...Yes, but not those at the entry level of SH. So I feel this would be a bad set-up, even though technically it is could be legal
 

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Legal - yes.

Gopher got her first SH leg with the water setup run the blind first down the middle of the pond, then run the double to either side of the line to the blind. Then honor. Absolutely no way the judges could have set up a double and blind on this particular piece of water with the blind outside the marks. Technically, if the marks have not gone down yet, then the blind is not "between" them. As designed, the test ran very smoothly.

Her second leg was on a 100% legal water setup. Water double. Then moved to another part of the pond, and ran the blind across the line to both birds of the double, with water entry point very close to where the AOF for the right-hand bird was. Again, no other way to set this up and fall within AKC regulations.

Now, which do you think ate the dogs up? Hint: not the one "between" the marks.

IMHO, both sets of judges did very well with the limitations placed upon them. They set up solid tests, and judged accordingly (expecting and carrying SENIOR level work). Unless you are running #1, you are going to have dragback regardless. Again, IMHO, this simply should not even enter the discussion.

Lisa
 

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But Lisa....


..I don't think it's about whether dogs can do it. Some will. Kate has passed some bad a** tests in her day & some included pretty stupid set-ups. (again-anybody who saw her in Delaware-the dog can mark :oops: )

Is it legal? Yup. But-if it's specified in the rules that blinds not be run in between marks- why do you think that is? Technically, you get around that in the scenarios you describe, but is it in the spirit of the rules for Senior dogs?

M
(thinkin' arguing with Lisa probably requires that one doesn't have existing cardiac problems :shock: )
 

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"Blinds shall not be run between marks in Senior Hunting Tests."

Note it does not say before or after. Pretty plainly stated...not an option. There are enough things left for interpretation that leave plenty of room for controversy, so why bend and twist something that is pretty much black and white :?:
 

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The spirit of the rules and reality often times don't mesh. Given different grounds, I have no doubt these judges would have set things up very differently. When you start becomeing a "strict constructionist" where the regulations are involved, it becomes far more about the trees and far less about the forest. There is wiggle room written into the regulations and the interpretation of the regs, so that judges can actually do their jobs.

As far as Senior dog work...they still need to display control on their blinds. They still need to show conviction on their marks. Any dog that vacuums its way to the bird is not doing Senior work, regardless of where marks and blinds are in relation to each other.

I am far more concerned with hot blinds in Senior, and there seems to be a growing trend to use them.

Lisa
 

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Lisa, I agree with being able to interpret when necessary, but again this is a B&W rule. I obtained my first SH when it was SOP to run the blind up the middle. As you pointed out, there are always those judges that carry things to the limits, and beyond, without letting them fudge on plainly stated rules.
 
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