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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
Any suggestions on how to get my dog to sit when she is coming in to me? She does pretty good on sitting on the whistle, but trying to get her to a) look at me and b) get her to sit when she has been called in. If I make her sit at a distance, walk away and then call her and try to get her to sit, she just keeps coming to me. How do I do this without confusing her when I'm telling her here and then I'm telling her to sit?

I have a few posts on here, but most were questions, and this is my first lab, so bear with me with a little understanding, please.

Thanks
 

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How do I do this without confusing her when I'm telling her here and then I'm telling her to sit?
You shouldn't think of obedience like this. The only thing she should be thinking about it doing what you tell her to do. It's not confusing if you think along those lines. Here means come toward you until told to do something else (either sit or heel, usually). It shouldn't matter where she is in proximity to you.

Think about this. Your puppy gets loose, you are callin it to you. It is about to cross a road to get to you, but a car is coming, so you need it to sit or it could get hit. I bet you'll be glad that you worked through the "confusion."

Think about an obedience session. You should be constantly giving the dog differering commands. Here. sit. here. sit. heel. sit. here. sit. heel.

As for getting it to sit on return...it starts in the yard at short distances. Start the dog 10 feet away call it to you and try to get it to stop halfway. Keep working at this distance until you get a good snappy sit. Then slowly build out the distance and start stopping the dog at different points en route.

Here's one tip that an Ohio pro taught me to get a better sit response. When you command sit, start moving toward the dog and put your hand up like a stop sign. This movement should help stop the dog's forward momentum.
 

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Discussion Starter · #3 ·
Thanks Whitefoot. I get what you're saying, thanks for making it easy for me to understand.

I have tried the stop sign deal, but moved away from her instead of toward her, trying to put distance between us. Your (and the pro's) suggestion makes alot sense, I'll have to try that.

Thanks again, and may God bless you for trying to help me.
 

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Thanks again, and may God bless you for trying to help me.
LOL. I'm relatively knew to this as well, I've just been blessed to have some great people to train with and learn from.

Just keep working on it. IMO, obedience is by far the easiest thing to work on. You can do it just about anytime and anywhere.
 

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Any suggestions on how to get my dog to sit when she is coming in to me? She does pretty good on sitting on the whistle, but trying to get her to a) look at me and b) get her to sit when she has been called in. If I make her sit at a distance, walk away and then call her and try to get her to sit, she just keeps coming to me. How do I do this without confusing her when I'm telling her here and then I'm telling her to sit?

I have a few posts on here, but most were questions, and this is my first lab, so bear with me with a little understanding, please.

Thanks
How old is this dog? What specific steps of training have been accomplished so far?

Your task is to first solidly establish sit en route before worrying about sit coming in. But first, what tools does she have?

Evan
 

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HUH??
I thought we all started sit comming to us 'fore we try sit going away?


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Many do, but that's backward in my view. There are already too many dogs reluctant to come when called, and it's often made worse by starting this too soon.

Evan
 

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The progression that I've had good luck with has the dog sit on the return from the pile first. Part of what I've felt I was trying to avoid was a lack of drive to the pile. If I can avoid pup ever "popping", that seems desirable.

I think Evan's question is the key. When one is "new" to retriever training and is teaching a dog to handle, I think it is best done by selecting a program and adhering to that program only.

once one is skilled in training several retrievers, and has the knowledge of how different ideas/techniques may contribute to the dog's training, it is probably safer to "mix and match".

For now though, I'd suggest that whatever program is being followed, it continue to be followed.

Fisn, are you following a specific training program or instructional package?

Good luck. Have faith...this is a very temporary spot that you're in and there will be more new moments along the way. Enjoy! Stay cool, be fair, have fun.

Chris
 

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Discussion Starter · #9 ·
Whitefoot, you might be new too, but I still appreciate the advice. It would be a blessing to train with others, but my timing never seems to work out-people are too far away, weathre is too hot, etc. Almost all of our work is yardwork.

Evan, you should recognize me, I get here or on the Fuge every once in a while and ask some kind of a question that should be simple but I sometimes struggle with. You have been gracious to always try to help. My dog turned 4 in June, thank God above, and we're still working toward the goals (obedience, duck dog and maybe hunt tests). I seem to be the limiting factor.

To answer the question about training you and Chris brought up, I have your series and have tried to follow alot of it. I work on obedience, but not long sessions, and not as regular as we should. We have most of the basics down, but she has not been collar conditioned. I'm just really getting to the point of feeling somewhat comfortable using it, but have read alot about "nagging", and trying to get past that.

Chris, you kind of hit the nail on the head, I don't usually try to stop her on the way to a bumper, as I don't want to hurt her drive. I usually work on whistle sit when she's running around the yard. And she does that pretty well, she just does not stop on the way in. Like Whitefoot said, I may be putting too much thought into it, I may just need to give her a command expect her to do it if she understands it. Just not sure she understands sit means sit on the way in. Here seems to override sit, and I kind of prefer it that way, but she needs to get that down so we can someday start working more on casting.

Thanks everyone, and thanks for the encouragement Chris. I'm enjoying the journey. Hopefully she is too.

May God bless you all.
 

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HUH??
I thought we all started sit comming to us 'fore we try sit going away?


.
Many do, but that's backward in my view. There are already too many dogs reluctant to come when called, and it's often made worse by starting this too soon.

Evan
for conversation sake Evan, as I have never viewed your young dog stuff. Have you ever viewed the Total E-collar DVD by Mike Lardy? If so is his formal obedience demo that is the precursor to the start of CC the same as yours? Simple 20 foot rope, stick and dog. Sit, here, sit, side front finish side again? The sit coming to you is started then, with you looking right at the dog. I really really thought this is how we all did it. One a rope with the dog facing you, coming to you. Anyone else who have viewed both feel free to jump in please.
 
 

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Evan, you should recognize me, I get here or on the Fuge every once in a while and ask some kind of a question that should be simple but I sometimes struggle with. You have been gracious to always try to help. My dog turned 4 in June, thank God above, and we're still working toward the goals (obedience, duck dog and maybe hunt tests). I seem to be the limiting factor.
E-collar conditioning is going to make a big difference in all your handling work. Being truer to following your chosen method will make even more.
To answer the question about training you and Chris brought up, I have your series and have tried to follow a lot of it. I work on obedience, but not long sessions, and not as regular as we should. We have most of the basics down, but she has not been collar conditioned. I'm just really getting to the point of feeling somewhat comfortable using it, but have read a lot about "nagging", and trying to get past that.
May God bless you all.
Yes, nagging is far more common than anyone is comfortable about recognizing, I think. Please understand that the overarching theme of Basics is pressure conditioning. If you miss that, you will have deprived your dog of something very important. It’s past time.
for conversation sake Evan, as I have never viewed your young dog stuff. Have you ever viewed the Total E-collar DVD by Mike Lardy? If so is his formal obedience demo that is the precursor to the start of CC the same as yours? Simple 20 foot rope, stick and dog. Sit, here, sit, side front finish side again? The sit coming to you is started then, with you looking right at the dog. I really, really thought this is how we all did it. On a rope with the dog facing you, coming to you. Anyone else who have viewed both feel free to jump in please.
No, Ken. Our methods are very similar, but this is one area of departure. I have thought for many years that most trainers worry about whistle sits in general too early in development. I build GO without the expectation of STOP for quite a while before stopping them, which happens in Mini-T in my system, and that’s stopping en route.

Likewise, I teach HERE (Come) without the expectation of stopping for quite a while also for quite a while before taking the more mature pup, and adding occasional sits when the pup is en route to me. Again, this is done after the dog is already reliable at sitting en route to a fall so the skill is already on board, and the pup has a solid understanding of it, along with balanced expectations. A somewhat older, more mature pup is easy to do this with, and generally will tend to have fewer problems with slowing or popping as a result.

All of this stems from observations beginning many years ago when I watched some big name FT pros that literally had to beg dogs to come in towards them – having gotten deep of a blind. Several times those same pros actually had to walk out and get the dog because they would not come when called. My dogs regard the command to come in equal authority with the command to go, and that’s what I seek.

This is one of those practices where it’s not about being ‘right’ or ‘wrong’, but rather about what an individual believes is a better overall practice.

Evan
 

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Discussion Starter · #12 ·
Evan, I do use the collar to reinforce commands, using light pressure (whatever it takes to get her attention at the lowest level), and maybe that's how I am nagging her a little, I'm not sure. I use it on here, sit and fetch when I do not get an immediate-enough response to a command she knows. I have not collar conditioned as on the video where you have someone hold/restrain her and call for her, and then in the later stages of this use the e-collar and keep increasing the pressure until you find out what gets a BIG response. I probably should have done that, but I just have a hard time with that. I (I know, I'm not the pro) just want to use the bare minimum to get the job done. Some days that's a 27 on the Dogtra and some days its a 48 (or somewhere in between). I even worry about how tight the collar is and what effect that has on the level required (I use the Bumper Boy stretch collar and get it where I can slide 2 fingers side-by-side under the collar).

So having written all that, if I start Mini-T, I assume the first stage is to the back pile and stop her enroute? I haven't tried stopping her on the way to a bumper she sees. Will that cause problems with "go" (which she currently has no problem with)? I just thought that I don't want to associate the shock (if required) with the retrieve, kind of like not associating a shock with a bird on a bird dog.

I just don't really know where to start at. I have not forced to pile, mainly for the same reason as above. I guess it's no difference than reinforcing fetch. But where do I need to back up to in order to at least eventually get her to sit when coming in?

Thanks
 

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I have both Evans and Lardys programs. I think Evans has more details for the beginer. The methods seem to be close. One big difference is the way and when they CC. I used Lardys CC method and I had to do it 2 times on one of my dogs. Probably because I was just nagging.
I started remote sits with a ROPE. Send to pile blow whistle and stop with rope.
On the return I would blow whistle and at the same time whip the rope up so the pinch collar chain would slap them in the chin.
But Im no expert. I stil have one with a slow loopy sit. Probably because Im nagging
 

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fishn, it sounds as if you have Evan's materials, is this true? If so, just follow his program step for step. A lot of people have had success with it and he's on here to help you out with problems that you may encounter.

You're going to continue getting into trouble if you just pick and choose which steps you want to do.

It also seems like you're really struggling with how much collar pressure you should be using. You should either get with someone locally, or maybe Evan can help you with this if you post up some videos.
 

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I don't have any use for Wolters he was a bull **** slinger not a dog trainer, but one thing I do that came from his books is the remote sit.

When the puppy is coming in blow the whistle when the dog is ~25 feet from you and start running at him at the same time. The dog will be so startled he'll stop. Blow again or say, "Sit," usually slowing to a walk at the same time, and he'll sit. Pat him up letting him know how good a dog he is and repeat. I give treats then if I have them with me. In a few days he'll have a reliable remote sit without running at him. Understanding will come with training in different places and different distances over time.

There is no need to go to the collar to teach this. I have my pups remote sitting before I cc anyway.
 

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I don't have any use for Wolters he was a bull **** slinger not a dog trainer, but one thing I do that came from his books is the remote sit.

When the puppy is coming in blow the whistle when the dog is ~25 feet from you and start running at him at the same time. The dog will be so startled he'll stop. Blow again or say, "Sit," usually slowing to a walk at the same time, and he'll sit. Pat him up letting him know how good a dog he is and repeat. I give treats then if I have them with me. In a few days he'll have a reliable remote sit without running at him. Understanding will come with training in different places and different distances over time.

There is no need to go to the collar to teach this. I have my pups remote sitting before I cc anyway.
This is exactly what the pro I mentioned in post #2 had me do.
 

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I don't have any use for Wolters he was a bull **** slinger not a dog trainer, but one thing I do that came from his books is the remote sit......
........There is no need to go to the collar to teach this. I have my pups remote sitting before I cc anyway.

Same Same Howard, it is what I do.
Evan, could you expand more on the why?
Did you do it one way and evolve to the other?
Or is it the way your mentors did it?



.
 

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Fishn. The best way I found to teach my male a wistle sit coming in like stated before is wait till the dog is almost in from its retrieve 15 20 feet maybe from you and blow the wistle followed by the stop hand stepping TOWARD the dog and saying SIT. After that I start stoping him a little further from me each time until I had him sitting right when he picked the bumper up still using the whistle and sit command. DO NOT sit the dog everytime it comes back because that will lead him or her to slowly make their way back anticipating the whistle. I would stop my pup every fourth retrieve or so and praise him to make sure he knows he is doing the right thing by sitting. When he was solid on sitting coming in I started to stop him going away by sending him and blowing the whistle before he had the chance to gain all of his momentum so it is easier for him to stop. He is a very hard charging dog and I had to gake baby steps with stopping him going away but in the end he does great. Then just stop the dog farther away from you each time. So whether coming in and going away stop her from close to you and when she is solid from a certain distance work her a little farther. Do a few everyday and dont overuse it in your training session or the dog will get bored with it. I havent had any issues with him not returning to me from this drill, but could see how this problem could come up. Hope this helps
 

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Discussion Starter · #19 ·
Thanks everyone for all of the advice. Last night I tried one time what several of you recommended last night, had her coming toward me, blew the whistle, gave her the stop sign like a Keystone cop, and went toward her instead of a way from her and she stopped, kind of like she was surprised. It was thundering and starting to lightning, so that was it. Anxious to try it again, maybe will late tonight before dark. I will be careful not to overdo it, don't want her to think she's going to get stopped every time. I will try to make it the exception rather than the rule, don't want to hurt her drive.

May God bless you all.
 

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Thanks everyone for all of the advice. Last night I tried one time what several of you recommended last night, had her coming toward me, blew the whistle, gave her the stop sign like a Keystone cop, and went toward her instead of a way from her and she stopped, kind of like she was surprised. It was thundering and starting to lightning, so that was it. Anxious to try it again, maybe will late tonight before dark. I will be careful not to overdo it, don't want her to think she's going to get stopped every time. I will try to make it the exception rather than the rule, don't want to hurt her drive.

May God bless you all.
Awesome. It sounds like you're on the right track.
 
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