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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
My 8 month YLM is finally coming around and I'm starting to see things come together. I'm still working on obedience and everything is finally starting to go very well in that arena. Over the last two weeks he has really really started to understand exactly what I want with very little rope pressure. He's been wearing the e collar for around 3 months but I just recently started applying it about 3 weeks ago. At first he was extremely confused. It also seemed like I could never find the right setting.....its a tritronics sport basic....so there are plenty of settings. I would hit him with a 1 one moment and it would get his attention then the next couple times it was like nothing....so I would bump it up and then it seemed like too much because he would buck up and pull away.

I started to get frustrated and almost threw the damn thing away. I called my trainer and he said continue but just keep it low and don't turn it up even if I don't get the "perfect" response. He said if the collar doesn't make him perfect than use the cord to get him back in line. Don't just start uping the stimulation.

It still didn't seem to click but I still pressed on. Well it was wierd I gave him a weekend off of training and we came back Monday morning and it was like a light switch clicked. Now he understands the pressure and he gets right in line perfectly. It's really neat to see things really click.

Now onto the other part of his training. My trainer gave me the go ahead to start FF. What an unfun process this has started out to be. But I know he will understand at some point.

To start off I'm using Duck Dog Basics as a program. We are about a week into FF. I only FF him once a day for about 10 minutes. Any other time spent training is strictly reenforcing OB. His total training time a day usually is not greater than 30 minutes.

Ok so now on to my question.....He really likes to try and roll away from the paint roller or the hammer. I have to hold him up with his collar and keep him in the sit position. He's very slowly coming around to hold. I have a crappy garage couch that I'm using as a force fetch "table". He gets right up and sits and waits patiently but as soon as I grab his muzzle and force him to grab the paint roller he tries to lay down and roll away. I know in time he will get there I just need some advice on that aspect.
 

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My 8 month YLM is finally coming around and I'm starting to see things come together. I'm still working on obedience and everything is finally starting to go very well in that arena. Over the last two weeks he has really really started to understand exactly what I want with very little rope pressure. He's been wearing the e collar for around 3 months but I just recently started applying it about 3 weeks ago. At first he was extremely confused. It also seemed like I could never find the right setting.....its a tritronics sport basic....so there are plenty of settings. I would hit him with a 1 one moment and it would get his attention then the next couple times it was like nothing....so I would bump it up and then it seemed like too much because he would buck up and pull away.

I started to get frustrated and almost threw the damn thing away. I called my trainer and he said continue but just keep it low and don't turn it up even if I don't get the "perfect" response. He said if the collar doesn't make him perfect than use the cord to get him back in line. Don't just start uping the stimulation. Are you already using pressure on beginning hold? Have you seen force fetch in person demonstrated by a pro?

It still didn't seem to click but I still pressed on. Well it was wierd I gave him a weekend off of training and we came back Monday morning and it was like a light switch clicked. Now he understands the pressure and he gets right in line perfectly. It's really neat to see things really click.

Now onto the other part of his training. My trainer gave me the go ahead to start FF. What an unfun process this has started out to be. But I know he will understand at some point.

To start off I'm using Duck Dog Basics as a program. We are about a week into FF. I only FF him once a day for about 10 minutes. Any other time spent training is strictly reenforcing OB. His total training time a day usually is not greater than 30 minutes.

Ok so now on to my question.....He really likes to try and roll away from the paint roller or the hammer. I have to hold him up with his collar and keep him in the sit position. He's very slowly coming around to hold. I have a crappy garage couch that I'm using as a force fetch "table". He gets right up and sits and waits patiently but as soon as I grab his muzzle and force him to grab the paint roller he tries to lay down and roll away. I know in time he will get there I just need some advice on that aspect.
Why are you using a paint roller or hammer if you are just starting hold? Initially, your object should be consistent. I don't introduce other objects until much later when the hold is reliable. I just use a plain ole wooden dowl initially... I want the drama to be on that object, not a bumper. I don't understand your use of pressure now in the beginning steps. Have you seen force fetch demonstrated in person by an experienced pro.

I really like the way that Tera demonstrates force fetch on her web site:
http://forcefetch.com/
 

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Discussion Starter · #3 ·
I agree with the one object...I already started sticking with one object. I figured that one out on my own but I totally agree with that. I tried a hammer and then I just figured I'd stick with the paint roller until I have him holding consistently. He needs to learn hold before learning other objects that was a dummy move on my part.

That being said I don't understand where you got that I'm pressuring the dog. I don't ear pinch or use the e collar at all. The only thing I do is put the object in his mouth.

Maybe you didn't read my post. He is really resistant and wants to lay and roll when I initially put the paint roller in his mouth. I have to hold him by his collar to keep him on his feet. It's frustrating but I just stay calm and keep the sessions as upbeat as possible. I know it's a matter of time just wanted to hear some thoughts on those of you that have dogs that resist in that kind of way and see what you did.

Those dogs on the videos you just gave me make me laugh...that's how all the videos I've seen look....the dog is mellow and just allows all that. Not mine he's high strung and wants to go all the time. My dog wouldn't look like that unless I took him on an hour long run.
 

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That being said I don't understand where you got that I'm pressuring the dog.
You said you are a week into force fetch. Force fetch uses force, or pressure. We can only go on what you say.

I thought you were trying to get him to hold a hammer as a ff object waaaaay to early. Do other than normal retrievable objects at the end when they know it.
 

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Discussion Starter · #5 · (Edited)
Yes I realize you force a dog to hold an item...but when someone says pressure I take that as an ear pinch or E-collar. My dog is not there yet. He's still learning hold.

Did you read my second post where I said the hammer was nearly immediately removed from training. I regret saying I ever used a hammer because it seems we are stuck on that. I only use a paint roller right now. I could use a bumper but I was told not to use a regular bumper until after he understands hold and force fetch....and then to introduce the bumper back.

Is what you are saying that I just need to change the object to say a bumper and he will stop resisting???

Did you read my posts at all....not sure what you are getting at... if your trying to get across that forcing the object into his mouth is pressure than ok you're right...the videos I've seen don't consider "pressure" until you are actually getting them to "force fetch" using an ear pinch or E-collar. Right now I'm just getting him to hold.

Does anyone have any advice for the rolling around and general resistance or is it just a matter of time. That's what I'm assuming but I've had thoughts of putting a hook in the wall to attach a lead to to keep him sitting up right but I felt like that would be too much.....maybe work on OB a little more??? He Sits, heels, here very well but definately not finished he needs a little more CC and a more and more distractions before I will feel really good with OB. I'm just going off what my trainer said and Duck Dog Basics. According to both I'm at the point where starting FF will be a good thing but his resistance is super high...this morning he clenched his teeth and rolled real bad....but he gets better towards the end of the session. It's like he's trying more and more ways to not be forced than to just accept it He's a stubborn SOB like his owner! It's not that he hates the feel of the paint roller because if i set it on the ground he goes right for it...but when I make him hold it...it's a totally different story.

Edit: when he does roll...I don't let him get away with it...I force him back to sit and keep the roller in his mouth....I only do his sessions in the morning..he's not panting and it's cool in the garage in the morning so it's not those things.
 

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I don't see anything wrong with starting ff with a paint roller. I've never used a paint roller but if they're tough enough then go for it. If it gets shredded then go to a bumper. After the dog gets the idea you'll be going to bumpers of different kinds birds and what have you. I can't imagine that changing object would make much if any difference to his issue of not opening his mouth. At first, sticking with only one object will simplify things.

I think everyone who has ff'd several dogs has run into some similar to yours. Like they have lockjaw to get something into their mouth. Avoidance behavior is real common in ffing. Expect lots of different types of it as they try anything except grab the bumper.

Only from what your saying and not from knowing the dog, I'd go into force fetch right now. With three fingers under his collar and thumb and forefinger pinching you should be able to keep control over the dog. It won't be perfect and he will lay down on you but persist and he'll start getting it. Keep a lead on him and stand or kneel on it when force fetching. He'll be squirming and fighting sometimes and if the dog gets away from your hand holding his collar he can't get away from you if you're stepping on the lead. 'Course he'll get away sometimes, but less when you have him on lead. Be persistent and in a couple of weeks he'll be lunging to the paint roller trying to beat your pinch. I like shorter than 10 minute sessions for beginning force fetch. Keep it at five to six minutes max for the first week to ten days. Don't go to 10 minute sessions until you're into it 10 days/2 weeks and then go up to 10 minutes sessions if you wish. Two times a day I think of as better than once a day. I know once a day will work, expect it to take longer.

Be persistent and explain to him by example that there's only one way to stop the ear pinch. Don't loose your temper, don't get mad, don't raise your voice. Stay calm and as even as possible. Show them by example that there's only one escape and that's by complying. You want to calmly go about training him. This is a real tough time of it for the dog so lots of praise when you see signs of him trying to comply. This is communicating on a very basic level, pinch, dog grabs bumper, pinch ends and he gets a good boy. The pinch doesn't end until he has the bumper/roller in his mouth. Really really mean it when they've been struggling and they do something right, no matter how small, let them know that was right. The very next time and for the next 10 times after that the dog might not do it right, but look for the times he does and praise him. The dog will eventually get it.

During a session after about 4 minutes of forcing start trying for more success. You want to end on a positive note, so if he can't take a step forward and grab the bumper, for the last minute or so have the bumper only a few inches from his mouth. You want to end on as positive a note as you can. I try to never end a session without success for the last few reps. Expect to get refusals for ~2-3 weeks and then they get fewer and fewer.
 

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Discussion Starter · #7 ·
This morning it was more of the same...I decided to switch off for a minute and had him just sit then called him to heel off the couch. It got his excitement up. I threw the paint roller like a fun bumper and just let him have fun for a quick second. Then I went straight back up to the couch and he did a little better. He still tryed the lock jaw but he wasn't fighting as much. I don't think I will do that every time but it definately lightened the mood a little bit.
 

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Ok so now on to my question.....He really likes to try and roll away from the paint roller or the hammer. I have to hold him up with his collar and keep him in the sit position. He's very slowly coming around to hold. I have a crappy garage couch that I'm using as a force fetch "table". He gets right up and sits and waits patiently but as soon as I grab his muzzle and force him to grab the paint roller he tries to lay down and roll away. I know in time he will get there I just need some advice on that aspect.[/QUOTE]

I also have a high drive dog. When I was teaching hold, the only way I could keep control was for me to sit on the couch or a bucket with her between my knees. I used one hand to hold her collar to keep her from avoiding the paint roller I was using to teach hold. I'm not a big or particularly strong person and this technique helped me get through hold. I am also not an expert, she is the first one for me to train beyond obedience.
 

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Does anyone have any advice for the rolling around and general resistance or is it just a matter of time. That's what I'm assuming but I've had thoughts of putting a hook in the wall to attach a lead to to keep him sitting up right but I felt like that would be too much.....
Keep in mind, I am only a novice. I have been around several force fetch training sessions though.

To answer your point, a hook in the wall WILL WORK. In preparing for FF, I have set up a a pulley/hook system along with a winch. Not that I am trying to hoist the dog up - LOL, but I will be able to adjust height etc.

I wouldn't use a couch or a sofa as your elevated platform. I can see 2 negatives to this. 1st, your dog will have the run of the family's sofa (because of association) and 2nd, the sofa is a very unsteady platform. He will get distracted by trying to steady and will pay less attention to training. Drive around housing construction scrap lumber will be plenty and a decent platform can be made in under 20 minutes.

Hope this helps.
 

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I have an 8 mth old black lab and just started this process as well. I was having the same problems as you were; she was locking her jaw, laying down, and down right refused to hold the dummy. I don't have a table either so she sits on the ground next to my couch and I sit on the couch in front of her. I came on here for advice, watched another gentlemans videos that he posted in his thread and went to u-tube. I started with the ear pinch and she refused, tried this a week and it didn't work. I watched a video on u-tube that started using the e-collar and this is exactly what it took for her to start holding. Within days she was holding the bumper, walking with it in her mouth, and now will retrieve to my hand. Before she was spitting it out right when she got to me. The best thing I learned is when your pup is finally holding move your hand in to take it mulitple times before actually doing so and giving the command. Until I did this as soon as my hand move in she opened her mouth.

Now on to the e-collar, basically the video said give the dog the bumper and say hold, as soon as they drop it, hit the continus button on the lowest setting, hold the button down give the dog hte bumper and say hold, release the button as soon as it's in thier mouth. It took one session and she started holding, where before it was a constant fight.

I will start force fetching tomorrow the same way, no ear pinching here cause it didn't work with my pup. Hope this helps!
 
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