[Ken Newcomb]

I have a small problem....well I have lots of them but just want to discuss one of them at this time.

If I want to administer a correction for not sitting at 75yds, or anywhere not at my side, without an ecollar what is the best way to do that and have the dog undertand what she is getting corrected for? By the time I haul my fat arse out 75 - 100 -150 yds she may have forgotten what a duck was. It seems if I hustle out and say sit and smack her while she is already sitting I may not have accomplished much.

If I have the collar on her she will sit every time slick as a whistle.....however, at tests she is developing the habit of slipping whistles. I want her to know that I can still correct her even if the collar isn't in play.

If none of that made sense we can discuss one of the other problems I probably have.

 

[Andy Carlson]

If you think she is in the mood to blow you off on a whistle, have you tried running out behind her as she is running so when you do blow the whistle you are right there? Sort of closing the gap to make a more up close and personal thing?

Not into running myself (other than in an emergency) regards,

Andy

 

[Jason Ferris]

I hate running too, but I've found that getting out there as quickly as you can and hauling the dog back to the spot where they should have stopped, correcting for the sit, then walking calmly back to the line while the dog sits there works well.

Andy's idea of following her out is a good one too, and recommended by some of the more successful trainers for early cold blind work.

Regards, Jason.

 

[hhlabradors]

I yell all the while I am running, "No, no, no, no" I don't know if it makes the dog understand any better, but I feel like I am marking the wrong behavior, so it at least makes ME feel better by doing something to TRY to make the dog understand better. :wink:

At any rate, I don't repeat commands, so if I've told the dog to sit, and sit didn't happen, by the time they've gotten this far in their training, they should have a pretty good idea that lack of sit can't be a good thing.

 

[Kyle B]

I've heard of training partners hiding in the woods and then assisting with the correction.

 

[spaightlabs]

you just need a really, really, really long heeling stick...

 

[John Gassner]

Closing the gap is good. So is "hiding in the woods". I would elaberate on this and have someone hiding behind a bush, tree, rock, tall grass, etc.

However, you don't want the dog to be afraid of these things. Have the helper "come out" when the dog is past or not looking at the hiding place if possible.

If the dog is blowing you off, then they are in their own little world. You can still walk out calmly, slowly, and quietly and then......

Amish yard work and drills for whistle stops would also help.


John

 

[paul young]

consider doing a few weeks worth of BB blinds. that way if the dog blows you off, there is no profit for the dog.

if the dog is working with you, the BB throws a bumper to the marker while the dog is sitting, looking at you. you are responsible for letting the BB know when to do it.

since you are also using a collar, i would think some sit-to-pile drills might help.

good luck!-paul

 

[Colonel Blimp]

Ken, daft question coming up.....

Is it vital that she actually sits? In a hunting dog it's enough for me if the dog just stops and looks back for instructions; when things are a bit lively sitting isn't always appropriate anyway.

If she's doing that then I wouldn't bother too much; (I take it test judges do bother!) if she's just buggering off into the jungle that's a different matter. Not being a collar trainer I can't help on that front, but it sounds as if she's collar wise; if so the Amish suggestion makes sense; then it's yardwork and attrition plus a training partner in the outfield.

I always aim to make it worth the dogs' while to obey a command; try and build in a reward for good behaviour not just a clip round the ear for poor behaviour....a retrieve, whatever.

Regards
Eug

 

[2 tollers]

Ken - Do you use whistle sit on the returns?

I do not use a collar so I needed to find other ways to correct this problem. During drills I randomly throw in whistle sit on the returns.

Also on the hike into my training areas - whistle sit walk away, whistle come from 100+ then a couple of sits on the way back to me. This way the dog is getting closer to me, easier to correct and I do not have to run out as far. This is the warm up before actual training session and I would do this for a few eveings only when the remote sits start to get slow or a little sloppy.

 

[John Gassner]

I will have to disagree with my friend from the UK. I think it is always important, especially in training to have the dog not only sit, but, to sit while facing the handler.


John

 

[Jerry]

John, to us, the dog should sit but the rules simply say the dog should Stop and take correction.

Col Blimp is correct. We just take it a step further when we require them to sit. If a handler blows a whistle and the dog stops and looks back for direction, and takes that direction, then it has shown that it is well trained.

It would take a hard azzed Judge to mark the dog down for that response.

Jerry

 

[Rick Hall]

They get one "sit" or whistle, followed (if I'm sure they heard it) closely by an angry "Hey!", and if nothing good happens pronto, I'm on my way. Soon gives the "hey" the same sort of remote weight of a collar correction. That, and I try always to be careful about voice control to keep the tone meaningful by avoiding over use.

 

[Robert]

Ken & others ignore me if I'm inserting my thoughts in the wrong post.

I'm rowing in the same boat Ken, you know that... I am seeing substancial improvement on my dog's reliability to whistle "without collar". But yet I'm left questioning a few thing that are going against the rule of thumbs which I'll get to...*

As Ken my dog is on the $ with the collar but as a few weeks ago during a test the light bulb went on that something had to be done as this was not the same dog I train day in and day out. Is there such as thing as "weaning" a dog off the collar? Anyways, the first training day and many following I approached this issue with some pattern blinds (land). Collar on at first, was lucky to get in one collar correction, and then repeated with the collar off each time I ran these pattern blinds.

Night and day from the collar on and that first afternoon I recalled for the first remote whistle sit infraction and after that if it occured again (it did more then once) I broke a major sweat running out, SIT or WHISTLE!, STICK, SIT or WHISTLE!, backed up a little ways then handled onwards to the blind. Short first then backing up and now almost back to normal blind distances.

It has only been a few weeks now with some regular training and of course no mock trial conditions, etc yet...and this sure the hell might not be the answer, but I've not received a whistle refusal with or without collar on all week. Should mention I've tried to hold the OB standard very high also.

*I've learned like many others the collar must always be on or you'll get a collar wise dog. My little question, and not to trump Ken's, is do you think it is naive on our part to think that our dogs (especially intelligent ones) are not collar wise regardless of the precautions and steps we humans think we are taking to prevent "collar wise"? Basically they know when it is on or off anytime and anywhere, period. Sure seems to me for at least some dogs we have to let them know we'll be coming a running with a correction even if they don't have that collar on.

 

[dbuzzard6]

Ken

consistency is the rule........... walk out there = sit, slap on the ass - whistle..........sit, slap on the ass whistle........walk around the field = reiterate - reiterate - reiterate is that a word ? Anyway, give your dog some credit - she will catch on to what the problem - try not to loose your cool ........and always place the dog back in the area where the first whistle was refused........eventually the dog will catch on to - it is not about getting the bird, it is about sitting on the whistle even though I may see or know where the bird is. Its command - correction - command
verbal sit, manual correction, and verbal sit ! I also throw a lot of fun bumbers and then blow the whistle right before the dog gets to the bumber - they learn to sit quickly because they are running wide open to the bumber - they also learn it is not about getting the bumber over "obedience or listening for the whistle" it makes it a game for the retriever The Expert on Tennis Shoe method - www.dieharddogtraining.com Got a great pic of me and you last summer at SDHRC social !! I wish someone would right something about Tillema for the HRC magazine, he did so much for HRC and GO GO for being different !!

 

[mjh345]

dbuzzard; It appears to me that you are kind of defeating the purpose of a fun bumper when you train by requiring a whistle sit on it.

 

[Howard N]

dbuzzard; It appears to me that you are kind of defeating the purpose of a fun bumper when you train by requiring a whistle sit on it.

Seems like he's training on whistle sits. I bet he gives fun bumpers without the whistle too.

 

[mjh345]

dbuzzard6 and HowardN; maybe it is just semantics but for me there is no training on a "fun bumper" I look at it like Outback Steakhouse motto i.e. "No rules just right"

 

[John Gassner]

Jerry, I agree that a dog should not be marked down for not sitting if it stops and looks back for direction by the judges.

My disagreement was in allowing it at any time in training. You must set a very high standard in training. That whistle means; 1)Stop 2)Turn around and look at me and 3)SIT. Also, remain sitting until given direction, period!


John