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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
I had a good discussion with a respected breeder this week about our labs. This breeder has frozen straws from at least one FC AFC dating back 30-years. This line would show in a great majority of our FT and HT pedigrees.

He confided in me that most people want to purchase from the flavors of the year so he doesn’t use these straws much if at all.

Perhaps, through dog generations many of the relatively new handlers (10-15 years of experience in the games) have simply forgot or don’t put stock in these key foundational dogs that made today’s modern sport? Maybe the games have evolved to a higher degree where the offspring from older pedigree FC’s wouldn’t be able to hold their own? I personally doubt it.

I’ve only been around all of this for slightly over 20-years, a retriever history buff and student of pedigrees. With today’s performance lines tight and the gene pool relatively shallow why wouldn’t you want a pup that comes from four or five generations back if the health clearances (I do recognize we’ve made significant health genetic improvements) from that time look good?

Or as the post title suggests do we now have dogs that have evolved for the betterment of the working breed?

Food for thought…
 

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Will go for Old blood but then it also depends on the old blood. If say it was Lean Mac or Cosmo; those are already represented quite well in today's pedigrees thus I'm not sure why you would need to go to original source over a current dog that you can see run. If it were something more Rare then it would really depend on the match-up and someone who knows those lines. I wouldn't want to pull a 30yr straw out and not have a really good idea that something nice will be produced; they aren't making those straws anymore after-all. I know several people who have straws of older rarer blood that are waiting for the right girl, and perhaps she will never come along. I'm sure it's a balancing act, on when to un-thaw and when not to, but I think it's good that they wait for something special when your defrosting something rare. It also would be nice if a database was kept of old blood that is available and that which isn't a lot of breeders would go for particular dogs if they saw that they were still available. Otherwise you tend to come and ask on this forum, is there any of X or Y out there still sometimes someone knows something, but I'm sure many old straws fall through the cracks because no-one knows they are still out there.
 

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I’m not a breeder (although I have used an old male of mine, long gone now, as a stud a few times) and my current dog is spayed but it would be interesting and even intriguing to know of well known dogs from days gone by from whom semen is still available.

The inability to use modern genetic testing is a bit of an issue but if the dog was previously bred extensively then people probably have a pretty good idea whether the dog was a carrier of EIC or CNM. In any event you could just use the straws on a Clear female and know that you will get no affected pups.
 

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FC PIKE OF CASTLE BAY (PIKE)
FC NDC HAWKEYE RED WHITE BLUE (BANNER)
CNAF FC SALTMARSH CODY’S JUDGEMENT
(CODY)
FC SPIRIT PAR SHOOTER (PAR)
NFC FC AFC TWO RIVERS LUCKY WILLIE
(WILLIE)
FC AFC HAWKEYES CANDLEWOOD SHADOW (SHADOW)
FC AFC CNF CNAF NIGHTWINGS MARSH LEADER (GUIDE)
FC AFC CHENA RIVER CHAVEZ (CHAVEZ)
NFC ROBBER’S STRAY BULLET (BULLET)

There are some older ones here.......listed in a post in "Stud Dogs"
 

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The inability to use modern genetic testing is a bit of an issue but if the dog was previously bred extensively then people probably have a pretty good idea whether the dog was a carrier of EIC or CNM. In any event you could just use the straws on a Clear female and know that you will get no affected pups.
If need be and if enough breeding straws are available, you can test the frozen semen of a deceased dog for genetic health markers. Frequently a half a straw is enough to test DNA.
 

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FC PIKE OF CASTLE BAY (PIKE)
FC NDC HAWKEYE RED WHITE BLUE (BANNER)
CNAF FC SALTMARSH CODY’S JUDGEMENT
(CODY)
FC SPIRIT PAR SHOOTER (PAR)
NFC FC AFC TWO RIVERS LUCKY WILLIE
(WILLIE)
FC AFC HAWKEYES CANDLEWOOD SHADOW (SHADOW)
FC AFC CNF CNAF NIGHTWINGS MARSH LEADER (GUIDE)
FC AFC CHENA RIVER CHAVEZ (CHAVEZ)
NFC ROBBER’S STRAY BULLET (BULLET)

There are some older ones here.......listed in a post in "Stud Dogs"
FC PIKE OF CASTLE BAY (PIKE)
FC NDC HAWKEYE RED WHITE BLUE (BANNER)
CNAF FC SALTMARSH CODY’S JUDGEMENT
(CODY)
FC SPIRIT PAR SHOOTER (PAR)
NFC FC AFC TWO RIVERS LUCKY WILLIE
(WILLIE)
FC AFC HAWKEYES CANDLEWOOD SHADOW (SHADOW)
FC AFC CNF CNAF NIGHTWINGS MARSH LEADER (GUIDE)
FC AFC CHENA RIVER CHAVEZ (CHAVEZ)
NFC ROBBER’S STRAY BULLET (BULLET)

There are some older ones here.......listed in a post in "Stud Dogs"
I saw this post too, do you think it’s legit?
 

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What about Rebel Ridge Cody's Mischief? Honest Abe? Watergator Sam?
 

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it is of course a matter of perspective but I do not view any dog on that list as “old blood”. If, after 20 years, one considers themselves an old timer I, on the other hand I consider anyone post early 1990s a whipper snapper.


You make me feel like a 65 year old toddler:).

I didnt even know what a blind retrieve was until around 2000. I know this is getting off topic but you bring a story to mind.

Back in the mid to late 70's I had a lab golden mix. Could have been a real nice dog if I knew how to train. Anyway he was ne hell of a frisbee dog I lived in Lake Havasu AZ and me and the dog lived in the water. Sometimes the dog would lose the frisbee floating flat on the water so I used the old throw a rock trick. Didnt take long before the dog would look back when I called and would feed off the direction I was pointing and my arm movement before I even threw the rock. I learned I didnt even throw a rock I could just cast. I thought I had invented something new, handling a dog form a distance and thought hey this could be something great.o_O:):LOL:. Fast forward 25 years and I learned people had been doing this for a lot of years.:(:).

Back to the topic I do like old blood and would like to see more of it brought back into the gene pool.
 

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Would it be reasonable to assume that most of the "old blood" that was worth preserving is probably represented to some degree in current dogs? I'm sure there may be a few great dogs from the past that just weren't bred enough to impact the breed, but for the most part, I would assume that the producers were bred a good bit and we can see the results at any weekend trial. Just a thought.
 
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Would it be reasonable to assume that most of the "old blood" that was worth preserving is probably represented to some degree in current dogs? I'm sure there may be a few great dogs from the past that just weren't bred enough to impact the breed, but for the most part, I would assume that the producers were bred a good bit and we can see the results at any weekend trial. Just a thought.
And, is the "old blood " dogs that were able to withstand the rat shot, cattle prod, marbling, early 4 plug training collar correction. And excel. Necessary in this day of 40 levels of stimulation and a tone button?
As the methods and tools change. So do the dogs.
 

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Discussion Starter · #18 ·
And, is the "old blood " dogs that were able to withstand the rat shot, cattle prod, marbling, early 4 plug training collar correction. And excel. Necessary in this day of 40 levels of stimulation and a tone button?
As the methods and tools change. So do the dogs.
Is this the same Ken Bora of the Maple Syrup HOF? The Niles is throwing me off. Sorry - when RTF made some upgrades, I was raising some kids. Had to make a new profile.

….now I come across a few familiar names or old posts from FOM, Angie (banned?), etc. Nice to see these people, although a bit old older, still active.

….I didn’t make Ed’s early 90’s call backs either. Just missed the cut and got a JAM.
 
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