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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
This is not about a particular test nor a particular dog.

I was reading the rule book, amended August 2011, and on page 28 Section 5 (Senior Hunting Test) item (5) it says, "Dogs may be handled on marks, but excessive handling requires a lower score in perseverance and/or marking..."

I was under the impression that if you handled on more than 1 mark, you would automatically fail the test. This leads me to believe that's not the case (in senior).

For example, if the dog scored a 10 on marking on the first mark on the land series, a 6 on marking on the second mark because he headed to the AOF but then ultimately had to be handled to a difficult mark, and then the same thing happened on water, his average marking score would be 8. That would be enough to pass, wouldn't it?

Or would most judges score marking lower than 6 if the dog had to be handled? Or would it depend on how tough the mark was, and how close the dog came to it before he had to be handled?

Inquiring minds want to know. Thanks.
 

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Been a while since I have ran a senior test but it seems to me that we could get away with 1 handle in the test. So if you had to handle on one bird in the land double if you handle on the water your not going to pass. Handling on 50 percent I would think they would call it excessive.
 

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Keep in mind that you have know idea what scores you are working with while you run your dog. and if you try to guess your scores after each series you will drive yourself (and everyone else) nuts.

As far as how many handles judges will allow, there is no set answer but more judges will drop for multiple handles than not.

That said, if you get to the last series without a handle you can assume you have 1 to give.

Bert
 

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Discussion Starter · #5 ·
Thanks for the replies. I'm new to this and just trying to be sure I understand the rules of the game.
The rules for JH are very specific that you can't handle more than once. But for SH it just says "dogs may be handled on marks". That's what got me thinking about it.
 

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The problem with any rule counting handles is that "there are handles, and then there are handles." A quick check whistle to keep Phiduax from blowing past a mark in heavy cover just upwind is not - IMO - the same as a monster "over" to get pup back in the same county as the AOF.
But that's just me. Many judges go by "2 handles yer out" in both SR and MR. But I got a ribbon a couple of weeks ago with a handle in all 3 series. Go figure.
Best is to run your dog as best you can and let the pencil whips do their job.

And, as Eric notes below the 1 handle rule in JR has been eliminated. Just was reminded of that as I was reviewing the book in preparation for the weekend.
 

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Thanks for the replies. I'm new to this and just trying to be sure I understand the rules of the game.
The rules for JH are very specific that you can't handle more than once. But for SH it just says "dogs may be handled on marks". That's what got me thinking about it.
Barb-

You need to read the rules released late last year and put into effect January 1, 2012.
For instance, there's no rule concerning JH dogs can only be handled once.

Once you have these latest changes, some of your questions may be answered while some new questions may arise. It just doesn't make sense to discuss former rules.

http://www.akc.org/pdfs/rulebooks/RHTRET.pdf

Eric
 

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Hi Barb, as Bob said, there are handles, and there are handles. I think the answer, unfortunately, is "it depends."
I can see where a dog can be handled on marks on two series and still pass (I've done it) and I can see where a dog handled on only one mark could fail for that alone (I think I've done that too, although I've tried to block it from my memory! LOL).
The best rule of thumb when running your dog is do your job as a handler to get the dog to the marks. Do whatever you have to do and let the judges decide. The more experienced you are the better job you'll do. If you felt like that 2nd handle was the ONLY way the dog was going to get the bird, then you probably did the right thing.
 

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Discussion Starter · #9 ·
Thanks guys. Anney, it didn't apply to me, I was just looking into the future *in case* it came up! I did handle him on the one senior test we failed, but I picked him up rather than handle him a second time because I didn't like the look in his eyes. He was about to go self-employed on me. That's another whole story for another day.
Good Dogs, I love the name "phiduax"! May have to name a dog that ;).
Eric, thanks for the link. I'm a rule book dweeb, I'm off to read the new rules :)
 

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This is not about a particular test nor a particular dog.

I was reading the rule book, amended August 2011, and on page 28 Section 5 (Senior Hunting Test) item (5) it says, "Dogs may be handled on marks, but excessive handling requires a lower score in perseverance and/or marking..."

I was under the impression that if you handled on more than 1 mark, you would automatically fail the test. This leads me to believe that's not the case (in senior).

For example, if the dog scored a 10 on marking on the first mark on the land series, a 6 on marking on the second mark because he headed to the AOF but then ultimately had to be handled to a difficult mark, and then the same thing happened on water, his average marking score would be 8. That would be enough to pass, wouldn't it?

Or would most judges score marking lower than 6 if the dog had to be handled? Or would it depend on how tough the mark was, and how close the dog came to it before he had to be handled?

Inquiring minds want to know. Thanks.
I'd have to see it to answer definitively, but a dog that is on a route to an old fall instead of the memory bird usually is not going to get a 6 on marking that bird when i'm judging. the fact that this "hypothetical" dog did it again on the water marks is going to be weighed heavily when my co-judge and i are reviewing this dog's work at the end of the test. this dog is not showing us much in the memory department.......

IF the marks were in a VERY tight configuration i would be more lenient, but as a rule i try to dissuade my co-judges from setting that type of marking test up. it just makes judging that much more difficult. I much prefer more spread out test designs, especially in Senior. That doesn't mean they're easy, though!-Paul
 

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If a Sr. dog has to be handled to the area of the fall on more than one bird, chances are he will fail due to poor marking. If however, he goes to the area of the fall and establishes a hunt in the 1st series and is given a quick clean handle to put him on the bird ~ he has fulfilled the requirements of "marking". Now, in the 2nd series he has to be handled again, depending on the circumstances, probablity is that the dog will pass. There is alot of confusion on this, not only with handlers but with judges themselves. I suggest that if you have to handle...do so, even if it is your second handle. Make the judges evaluate the performance. You gotta do what you gotta do to get that ribbon.
 

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Discussion Starter · #12 ·
Thanks for the replies. It seems that, from what everyone is saying, "handle twice and you're out" is not a cast in stone rule, which does answer my question.
 

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Barb-

The "handle twice and you're toast" is still accepted by some judges but AKC is starting to push for the grading of dogs rather than simply "0"ing them out.

For instance, handling on two marks in one marking series is much worse than handling on one bird in each of two series. In the first instance, the dog probably doesn't have much chance of qualifying. In the latter, handling on one of a three mark series the dog is likely to receive a relatively low but recoverable score....maybe 5 or 6. Even doing this twice, if a dog otherwise has good blinds and a good third marking series, he may well pass.

Even in JH this comes into play. Suppose a dog makes the area of the fall but after a bit of hunting then has to be handled. He'd end up with maybe a 3. (Remember these are just singles.) Then the dog does it again. Then the dog has two outstanding marks....maybe 9's. The dog could pass with an average score for marking of 6 with sufficiently high marks in trainability and perseverance and style.

Eric
 

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Discussion Starter · #14 ·
Thanks Eric, that's exactly what I was looking to know. If, in extenuating (sp?) circumstances, you had to handle twice (dog gets lost on memory bird on land after having to chase down a running cripple for 5 minutes, then memory bird on water sinks...) it's not an automatic failure. The judges could still pass the dog without breaking any AKC rules.
Edit to add standard disclaimer....the above did NOT happen to me, and my dog did NOT ever fail a test for being handled twice. Just an example.
 

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Ok. This happened to me. We had a double walk up( both working and honor walking at same time) and my dog is more concerned with honor dog than what's fixin to happen. She doesn't mark the bird and judge acknowledges that she never saw it. I handle her and pick it up. Now the double. After a no bird and a Lil confusion at line we go back. She pins the first bird and starts to split the guns. Thinking that I'm out of handles, I pick her up. If the judge makes mention that she never saw the walk up. Did I still have a handle left?
 

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This happened to me also in a SH test.

My land marks were clean as were both blinds.

On the water double there was a loud "commotion" in the gallery which was 6 feet directly behind the line on the first mark after the dog had been sent when she was only 10 yards from the line on the way to the mark. She popped. I handled.

Sent her on the second mark...again their was a LOUD "commotion" in the gallery when the dog was 10 yards from the line and again she popped. Again, I handled.

As I left the line the judges apologized to me. Not that my dog had to be handled and had failed but about the gallery. Judges were not happy...

We passed.
 

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Discussion Starter · #17 ·
jbell, that's exactly why I'm asking, in case I get into a situation where I feel I should handle twice, I will know to go ahead and handle, not pick up the dog and assume we would have failed.
Thanks Linda, for the example. I'm glad to hear you did pass, even with two handles!
 

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This is not about a particular test nor a particular dog.

I was reading the rule book, amended August 2011, and on page 28 Section 5 (Senior Hunting Test) item (5) it says, "Dogs may be handled on marks, but excessive handling requires a lower score in perseverance and/or marking..."

I was under the impression that if you handled on more than 1 mark, you would automatically fail the test. This leads me to believe that's not the case (in senior).

For example, if the dog scored a 10 on marking on the first mark on the land series, a 6 on marking on the second mark because he headed to the AOF but then ultimately had to be handled to a difficult mark, and then the same thing happened on water, his average marking score would be 8. That would be enough to pass, wouldn't it?

Or would most judges score marking lower than 6 if the dog had to be handled? Or would it depend on how tough the mark was, and how close the dog came to it before he had to be handled?

Inquiring minds want to know. Thanks.
Just to clear up one of the most prevalent misconceptions about judging, except for junior, most judges do NOT give a point value for each mark. Rather they assign a single point value for all the marks in that series. I've seen some judges books where the judge doesn't even give a value but a verbal score similar to field trial judging (fair, good, excellent, etc.).

When I judge senior or master, I evaluate the test during set up based on the performance of the setup dog. From this and past experiences, I develop a picture or expectation of what the average performance should be for that series. This becomes my "7". Anything better gets a higher score, anything less.... As such in both senior and master, the expectation is that the dog should have little trouble with the go bird and that the memory bird(s) are what will generate the bulk of the score. Further, the go bird is usually set up (more so in master) to provide a factor to the test that will in some way affect the dog's memory (wiper bird, over/under birds, etc). Hence, the averaging of the scores of multiple marks in a series just isn't done. Rather it is the the total work of the dog on all the marks in the series that generates the score.


T. Mac
 

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I am a firm believer that if you go to the trouble (and expense i.e. flyer) to set up the go bird, it must have some point value and be factored in with the other marks. But that's just me.
 

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jbell, that's exactly why I'm asking, in case I get into a situation where I feel I should handle twice, I will know to go ahead and handle, not pick up the dog and assume we would have failed.
Thanks Linda, for the example. I'm glad to hear you did pass, even with two handles!
NEVER assume you have failed. Do what you have to do to get the birds and let the judges judge. I only pick up my dog when I don't want them learning or getting away with something detrimental to their training or when the judges tell me to.

I figured I failed that test but my dog was already in the water, on her way to the mark and I didn't want her coming back to me with out a bird.

It could have gone either way in the judges eyes but if I had picked her up we would have been out. Period.
 
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