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Theory of the blind
I just had a discussion with a friend of mind who is a judge in events other than AKC.
I said to him when running a blind in a AKC event I would advise you not to use a over to get your dog back on line. The reason is that it does not significantly improve your dogs advancement to the blind (pin) and that many judges will nick your score for this. The blind is all about control and by keeping your dog on a tight line you should not need an over! There are times when you may find yourself forced into using over to get a dog back in the water where a angle back might cause the dog to run the shore line. But a land blind should consist of backs and angle backs if you are trying to challenge the blind by running your dog through all the factors the judges have picked for this blind. I was then asked when is an over appropriate in a AKC event? I said I would hope that I never have to use the command OVER but if I do it would be when my dog needed to handle to a mark.
There are many of you on RTF that judge Retriever events both AKC and others. I would like to here your opinions on the use of the Command Over in a blind? Is HRC and North American Hunting Retriever Association or other events any less stringent in the requirements for the blind? Is the use of the command OVER not going to effect the score given by the judges?
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Isn't the judge supposed to be watching the dog and be oblivious to the cast (unless it's a refusal) & just be concerned with if it improves progress to the blind? And- (not that the judge should be concerned with it), but aren't literal casts rare in test/trial situations?

M
 

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You use the cast you need to get the job done.
 

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I don't judge words. I judge the dog. Handler could yell east and west for all I care as long as he keeps the dog on line. Frankly if the dog is so far offline that you need big overs you have bigger problems than what cast you give.

/Paul
 

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If I am not mistaken there is a thread on the HRC site that has some comments closesly related to this question, or it might have been here. In short, the responses were like those already voiced here. The one area that seemed to cause some concern was on a vocal over and the dog would take the cast a couple feet and then scallop straight back. Some opinions viewed this as a refusal if I remember correctly. I do remember one individual stated that once an over is given it should be taken until stopped.
 

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Back to the car, over to the next series. Use the cast you need and the one that is appropriate for the situation and dog. Some dogs take great angle backs, others do not and even those that take good angles do not always do so in a test. Not every situation that requires an over means that the dog is too far off line. I give one of my dogs very short overs, 5-10 feet, on a regular basis rather than have him get deeper into trouble using an angle. I recently ran a test were the dog was only slightly off line but because of the direction the dog sits, sitting him would have caused him to be behind cover where it would have been difficult at best to cast him. The better choice in this situation was to allow him to carry the line 15 more yards to an area where I could sit and handle him to the blind with an over. The judge commented that it was a very good handles decision to do so.
Never been dropped for an over regards.
 

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badbullgator said:
Back to the car, over to the next series. Use the cast you need and the one that is appropriate for the situation and dog.
Virtually every published retriever trainer quotes this line. If your judge doesn't know this concept, I wouldn't want him judging my dog!
 
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they can quote any line they want. do what you have to do to get the job done and let the judge take it from there. have we forgotten, its all relative in field trial.
 

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suprdogs said:
they can quote any line they want. do what you have to do to get the job done and let the judge take it from there. have we forgotten, its all relative in field trial.
SD
I think that is the point of that line :wink:
 

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SFiedler said:
cause some concern was on a vocal over and the dog would take the cast a couple feet and then scallop straight back. Some opinions viewed this as a refusal
Are you serious? Get me a link to that because 1. I sometimes get into the mood to "object"
and 2. I need to make a list of idiot judges that I never want to run under. :roll:
 

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I have looked for the link I was referring to for about 30 min. with no avail. I will keep looking. The thread I am referring to was one of those "would you fail my dog." If I am remembering correctly, it was a down the shore blind. Dog would go towards the bank, handler gave 4 or 5 vocal overs and each time dog would scallop and head towards bank. So I believe they failed due to cast refusals. I think this was an HRC test. Again, I would really like to find the thread and will keep looking. Problem is once I find it, I will probably have this whole thing screwed up.

Anyone else remember this thread??
 
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