[rookie]

I wrote a post on the theory of the blind asking if others who judge events other than AKC or judge both would agree that the standard is the same in NAHRA OR HRC or is it less? 645 people read this post and only 12 responded and not one of them gave a answer only a brief comment. It is not like the good folks here to be quite. Please respond to the question!
Rookie

Theory of the blind
I just had a discussion with a friend of mind who is a judge in events other than AKC.
I said to him when running a blind in a AKC event I would advise you not to use a over to get your dog back on line. The reason is that it does not significantly improve your dogs advancement to the blind (pin) and that many judges will nick your score for this. The blind is all about control and by keeping your dog on a tight line you should not need an over! There are times when you may find yourself forced into using over to get a dog back in the water where a angle back might cause the dog to run the shore line. But a land blind should consist of backs and angle backs if you are trying to challenge the blind by running your dog through all the factors the judges have picked for this blind. I was then asked when is an over appropriate in a AKC event? I said I would hope that I never have to use the command OVER but if I do it would be when my dog needed to handle to a mark.
There are many of you on RTF that judge Retriever events both AKC and others. I would like to here your opinions on the use of the Command Over in a blind? Is HRC and North American Hunting Retriever Association or other events any less stringent in the requirements for the blind? Is the use of the command OVER not going to effect the score given by the judges?
Rookie

 

[GBUSMCR]

Well, I am a rookie also but I have stayed at a Holiday Inn Express so feel willing to comment. I have only run a few AKC HT but have learned that you are will not pass a SH or MH if you use a "over" on the blind. Every judge at every test has said they are looking for you to challenge the blind. Hopefully someone with experience in all venues can offer your comparison. It is my belief they are all pretty much hold the same thought given the level of the test. FWIW (which is probably not much. :? )
R/S

 

[Guest]

Is that you, Warren? Just checking...

Literal casting (typically excludes angle backs and overs) is for training and 99% of the time it works for me in a test or trial situation. I know you touched on some of this, but...

There's an old saying... "over to blue, back to the truck" and even the sweetest dogs lose some semblence of sanity on the weekend. So you use WHATEVER cast gets you to the blind. In some cases and over will get you what a straight back typically would. So you have to know your dog and do what you have to do to get to the blind.

generally, you don't want your dog going 90 degrees left or right, but sometimes that's just what you have to do to get your dog in position to get the bird...

So while I don't frequently use overs en route to the blind (but probably with some frequency at the very end when the dog may be even but isn't winding it), I surely don't think you can rule them out entirely.

And I don't think as a judge (I'm not one, but responding anyhoo) you have any right to look at what your handler is casting. Your sole responsibility is to see that on each cast, the dog makes more progress to the blind.

I think the folks that RELY on overs ON A DAILY BASIS to get to a blind with an advanced dog have simply not put literal casting into their program. So that's JUST the way they handle. I notice it at hunt tests. Same thing with people that give their dog a few come-in whistles under judgement to get the dog back on line... I think it's just inexperience and lack of literal casting (which takes most people quite a while to understand anyway, I know it did me!!).

-K

 

[Debthomas]

I judge both AKC and UKC and I would much rather see you give an over as soon as the dog is off line, get them back on line and continue to challenge my blind. In either game it is not favorable to give a great big over at the end just to pick up the bird. But as Kristi said you need to do what is going to get you to the bird and let the judge, judge it, remembering to always challenge the blind, meaning to work to keep your dog on the best possible line to the bird.

My 2cents

 

[Guest]

I judge both AKC and UKC and I would much rather see you give an over as soon as the dog is off line, get them back on line and continue to challenge my blind. In either game it is not favorable to give a great big over at the end just to pick up the bird. But as Kristi said you need to do what is going to get you to the bird and let the judge, judge it, remembering to always challenge the blind, meaning to work to keep your dog on the best possible line to the bird.

My 2cents

Bottom line is that if a handler needs a true over cast, one of two things happened... Either their whistle was late or the dog had a refusal of some sort. In either case, the over may be warranted.

But the dog "should" never be far enough off line to NEED an over.

Like Deb said, challenge the blind. If you have a master level blind with VERY CLEAR issues en route, don't let your dog get far enough away from them that you need a huge cast to TAKE them. You probably won't get the dog through the major factor(s) of the blind if you let your dog get terribly far off line and require an over to even ATTEMPT to recover.

-K

 

[rookie]

the over cast in a blind YUK

Bottom line is that if a handler needs a true over cast, one of two things happened... Either their whistle was late or the dog had a refusal of some sort. In either case, the over may be warranted.

But the dog "should" never be far enough off line to NEED an over.

Like Deb said, challenge the blind. If you have a master level blind with VERY CLEAR issues en route, don't let your dog get far enough away from them that you need a huge cast to TAKE them. You probably won't get the dog through the major factor(s) of the blind if you let your dog get terribly far off line and require an over to even ATTEMPT to recover.

-K
Now that is a bottom line answer from a pro who has been there and done tha!!! If you want to be successful CHALLENGE all the factors in the blind to avoid the factors is a ticket to the highway!
Thanks Kristie great advise
Rookie

 

[Brevard Arndt]

If I were judging, and let me state that I never have except in NAHRA, and I have placed the starting point for the blind so that the dog will be diverted from the "line to the blind" by a tall clump of grass or a limb, etc., THEN I would expect an "over" cast very quickly to get the dog back on line.

If I am dropped because I gave an over to get the dog back on line, then I make a memo to me to not run under that judge again.

What is the purpose of the blind?

To me is very simply an opportunity to demonstrate the team work of the handler and dog. If I need to get the dog back on line and it takes an over cast with the dog responding, where is the foul?

 

[kjrice]

Technically a well trained dog should take an immediate back cast, which would mean your still offline correct? How many people stop there dog for being 3-4 feet off line? What if there is a point you need to negotiate and using a back cast will not get you the desired result versus an over. Since when did challenging mean "no casts other than backs"? If I were judging, I would want you and your dog to work as a team to stay online. I am not going to tell you how to do it. If it is clean and pleasing, then you will be fine (with me). JMHO.

 

[Bob Gutermuth]

DEPENDS, on why you need the Over! Some handlers won't challange the blind. I judged a master test where we had the dog angling down a berm. One handler sent his dog straight down the top of the berm and gave it a HUGE Hollywood over when it was even with the blind(I'm talkin a 35 yrd over, not a slight correction). They failed the blind. If the dog is inside the fairway, and needs an over thats a horse of another color, to get off a point, or keep it from dissapearing behind a piece of cover or something similar.

 

[K G]

And I don't think as a judge (I'm not one, but responding anyhoo) you have any right to look at what your handler is casting. Your sole responsibility is to see that on each cast, the dog makes more progress to the blind.

Could you expand on this thought, Kristie?

Copious note maker regards,

kg

 

[K G]

bump

 

[AmiableLabs]

. . .645 people read this post and only 12 responded. . . .

There is no way of knowing how many individulas actually read your post. The view count is not of individuals, but rather the number of times the thread has been opened.

Everytime you were opening the thread to see if someone replied, the counter went up another notch. Everytime someone who did reply opened up the thread to see if anyone replied to him, the count went up.

You could have a view count of 645 with the same person opening up the thread six-hundred and forty times all by himself! :wink:

 

[K G]

bump...again.... :?

kg

 

[Jerry]

Well since you have bumped it twice, I will tell you my thoughts on her statement.

That is one of the dumbest statements I've ever seen her make.

Jerry

 

[Gun_Dog2002]

And I don't think as a judge (I'm not one, but responding anyhoo) you have any right to look at what your handler is casting. Your sole responsibility is to see that on each cast, the dog makes more progress to the blind.

Could you expand on this thought, Kristie?

Copious note maker regards,

kg

I'm not Kristie but I stayed at a holiday inn once. I don't know what she meant by the judge having the right to look at the handlers cast. I really have no clue.

What I will add though is the cast or the casting method doesn't matter a hoot if the dog works with the handler, stays on line and picks up the bird. I have a good older friend, probably older than you and Jerry both you two young whippersnappers, who happens to be from England. The first time I trained with him, I set a blind up that was eating the dogs up with handling to stay online with the water/wind factors messing with them. Gerald, we call him Gerald because his name is Gerald, comes to the line with his old gal who at the time was about as ancient as he is, and he proceeds to send her off. She held a great line against the wind, got in the water at just the right time and about 50 yards into the swim I was wishing she was for sale. She started to cave and miss a point when he blew his first and only whistle, she turned and he throws both hands into the air at the same time and yells back. Blew my young mind and I showed my preponderance for stupidity by saying out loud, “what the hell was that?” Gerald was kind enough to ignore my moron question and watches as his girl crossed the point, re-entered water and did the shoreline swim for another 40 yards exiting on target and picking up the bird. Gerald laid a gentle, kind old hand on my shoulder and responded, “that was my dog 1 whistling your bloody blind” followed up with a smack to the back of my head and saying, “never disrespect your elders…”

Lesson learned.

/Paul

 

[K G]

What I will add though is the cast or the casting method doesn't matter a hoot if the dog works with the handler, stays on line and picks up the bird.

I agree. I'm just trying to discern what "rights" I have as a judge to make notes on those dogs that don't work with the handler or can't stay on line, even if they do pick up the bird.

kg

 

[TxFig]

I wrote a post on the theory of the blind asking if others who judge events other than AKC or judge both would agree that the standard is the same in NAHRA OR HRC or is it less? 645 people read this post and only 12 responded and not one of them gave a answer only a brief comment. It is not like the good folks here to be quite. Please respond to the question!
Rookie

Theory of the blind
I just had a discussion with a friend of mind who is a judge in events other than AKC.

I think part of the reason you didn't get many responses is because your presuposition you gave to your friend is wrong. I don't know of a single AKC judge that would nick your score for giving an over (so long as your dog took it).


"Over to the ribbon, back to the truck regards",

 

[paul young]

are you saying that a dog which was only taught overs and straight backs is incapable of performig a blind to the master standard? :?

to answer Rookie's question, i judge NAHRA,HRC AND AKC tests. at the senior/finished/master level, the standard is essentially the same. how the standard is applied is up to the judges at that particular event.

a finished hunting dog is the standard for all these programs at the top level.-paul

 

[Miriam Wade]

/paul wrote:

She started to cave and miss a point when he blew his first and only whistle, she turned and he throws both hands into the air at the same time and yells back. Blew my young mind and I showed my preponderance for stupidity by saying out loud, “what the hell was that?” Gerald was kind enough to ignore my moron question and watches as his girl crossed the point, re-entered water and did the shoreline swim for another 40 yards exiting on target and picking up the bird. Gerald laid a gentle, kind old hand on my shoulder and responded, “that was my dog 1 whistling your bloody blind” followed up with a smack to the back of my head and saying, “never disrespect your elders…”

/Paul-that sums it up! Great post!

M

 

[rookie]

are you saying that a dog which was only taught overs and straight backs is incapable of performig a blind to the master standard? :?

to answer Rookie's question, i judge NAHRA,HRC AND AKC tests. at the senior/finished/master level, the standard is essentially the same. how the standard is applied is up to the judges at that particular event.

a finished hunting dog is the standard for all these programs at the top level.-paul

Paul
No I do not consider the use of over on a blind cause to drop a dog!!~
I have always expressed to the group that I train with that a blind is a control and trainability test. Every judge sets his blind up with various factors that he or she expects your dog to challenge. Going by the old saw that straight is great anything else is a deduction. Why at the master level would you want to add another cast to start making progress to the blind when an angle back will accomplish this and still make significant progress to the pin.
All of us have different opinions and standards for what we consider a master dog or senior dog. Just my personal standard for my dogs, blinds are left back, left angle back and right back, right angle back. A master blind should be accomplished with a few clean crisp cast that make significant progress to the blind. If I would need to give the over cast I have let my dog get out of judgement and we are no longer challenging the blind. We are a team and I have failed my dog time to say HERE. We are not good enough; time to go back and train. I also so feel the MASTER dog that only does over and back is for the most part a mediocre blind dog. I would not run a dog with this level of skill in a master test but many others are well satisfied with this kind of performance.
I thank you for your answer concerning HRC and NAHRA blinds.
Rookie