RetrieverTraining.Net - the RTF banner
1 - 20 of 46 Posts

·
Registered
Joined
·
3,637 Posts
AFC & he was such a handsome dog!! He also had a CD & TD (Tracking Dog title)

M
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
3,252 Posts
Don't know the dog, but if it was a dual champion it was a bench (conformation) champion + a field champion (FC). If it had also earned the amateur FC title AFC it would be listed as DC/AFC or Dual CH/AFC etc. A bench champion that is an AFC is not considered a dual champion and listed as CH AFC. Hope that helps!
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
3,637 Posts
Oops! Julie's right in terms of the Dual CH denoting FC, but he was also an AFC.

M
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
479 Posts
Dual CH AFC Tigathoe's Funky Farquar CD TD OS FDHF (11/11/1971-6/5/1987) was a Dual Champion, which makes him a CH and FC, but he was also an AFC, and had titles in obedience and tracking. He wa owned and trained by Dottie Ramsey Mikeska, who still breeds, trains and handles Goldens today at College Station, TX, along with her daughter and son in law, Shannon and Adam Casto. I Believe Pat Sadler is still around and breeding Goldens.

He was bred by Torch Flinn and Pat Sadler, in the northeast. Torch was probably the most prominent breeder of the 50s and 60s, and continued well after that. Her Tigathoe's prefix appears way back in most field Golden pedigrees, including my Cody and Pilot. Farquar had three littermates who earned their FC and AFC titles.

While I never saw "Quar" work, many people have told me he would complete well in Field Trials today. There hasn't been a US Dual CH since Quar, but Mike and Val Ducross' Firemark's Push Comes to Shove, bred by Melanie Foster earned his Canadian Dual Champion title last year.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
584 Posts
A little Golden trivia for you this morning. As Steve mentioned Dual Ch AFC Tigathoe’s Funky Farquar, Quar” was a littermate to FC AFC Tigathoe’s Kiowa II, “Ki”. I have not idea how many litters each sired, but one would think that the Dual Ch of the two would have had more girls calling.

However, while Quar certainly sired some nice pups, he had no FC or AFC or CH pups to his credit. Ki on the other hand has to his credit 3 or 4 FC and/or AFC and (going from a questionable memory here) 3 CH pups.

One of those CH pups was a bitch named Ch Sunstream Gypsy of Topbrass, dame of NAFC FC Topbrass Cotton. There is another Golden of note that was line bred on Ki which is arguably one of the most influential of the past dozen year, that being Wraith’s Duncan.

I am one who does not believe that Ki gets the credit he deserves.

Dottie Ramsey Mikeska, who still breeds, trains and handles Goldens today at College Station, TX, along with her daughter and son in law, Shannon and Adam Casto. I Believe Pat Sadler is still around and breeding Goldens.
Steve, check out the breeders on this pup.
http://www.k9data.com/pedigree.asp?ID=227249
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
606 Posts
ki has some wonderful offspring out there bred by ai's . Their are two litters i believe. Torch Flinn had some great goldens! Melanie foster congrats, i had heard about your accomplishments, we need to chat sometime!! I think that this is soo great. Maria
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
2,624 Posts
Jim, do you have any insight as to why Kiowa II was never finished as a bench CH? Was he just never shown in the ring?
From all the photos I have seen of them, Kiowa was a MUCH better looking dog. Met the standard better (from what can be observed in a still photo) and would be competitive in the breed ring today.
Those who argue today's conformation Goldens depart from the standard, should check out Ki's photo on k9data.
http://www.k9data.com/pedigree.asp?ID=119
JS
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
3,637 Posts
Jim Pickering wrote:

I am one who does not believe that Ki gets the credit he deserves.
Any thoughts on why? He certainly had it all. My Kate goes back to Ki bred to CH Ad-Lib's Bangor CD *** Great bitch in her own right!

M
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
204 Posts
Perhaps, as may often be the case, there was too much of a bias toward the extra title on the paper

versus

the natural attributes of the individual dog and what they would pass on in their pups???
(note: I'm NOT saying that ANY of these dogs weren't great dogs!!)



bp
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
17,222 Posts
IMO Kiowa II was the better looking dog and more field Goldens were bred to Kiowa II than Quar. I had a male sired by Kiowa II out of an FC AFC Cheif Sands bitch that I purchased from Pat Sadler. His AKC Reg name is; Louisiana's Ragin Cajun and he became QAA with a Q Win. He was trained by Bill Little of Ontario, Canada. L'sRC died at a young age of cancer.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
479 Posts
Jim Pickering wrote
A little Golden trivia for you this morning. As Steve mentioned Dual Ch AFC Tigathoe’s Funky Farquar, Quar” was a littermate to FC AFC Tigathoe’s Kiowa II, “Ki”. I have not idea how many litters each sired, but one would think that the Dual Ch of the two would have had more girls calling.

However, while Quar certainly sired some nice pups, he had no FC or AFC or CH pups to his credit. Ki on the other hand has to his credit 3 or 4 FC and/or AFC and (going from a questionable memory here) 3 CH pups.
Jim, could it be that in his day there were more really good Golden bitches located in the northeast closer to Ki than here in Texas, and AI was not as common as today? They were both great dogs. I did check K9data and found that Quar had 4 CH offspring, 12 QAA but no FCs or AFCs.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
17,222 Posts
JS said:
Those who argue today's conformation Goldens depart from the standard, should check out Ki's photo on k9data.
http://www.k9data.com/pedigree.asp?ID=119
JS
The dogs from older lines, pre-Holway Barty were dual purpose. The old bloodlines could work in the field but, not as well as today's Golden. In the pre-Holway Barty era, one could count the successful Goldens throughout FT history on one hand. What Barty brought to the party was a smaller, lighter-boned and narrower frame field dog. Barty get were fast and many were as good in the water as they were on land. Barty is the reason that today's successful FT Goldens look they way that they do and not what they looked like in the early 1970's.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
2,624 Posts
Melanie Foster said:
JS said:
Those who argue today's conformation Goldens depart from the standard, should check out Ki's photo on k9data.
http://www.k9data.com/pedigree.asp?ID=119
JS,

Can you explain the correlation? I'm sure I am missing something obvious. :)

Melanie
I’m not sure what correlation you are referring to;

From the photos I have seen of Quar and Ki ... and as I suggested, still photos provide a very limited picture (pun intended 8) ) of a dog’s conformation ... I like the looks of Ki and say that he better conforms to the standard. Furthermore, he might be competitive in the show ring today. Looking at the photo on k9data, he would fit in better with a typical cross section of show dogs than he would with a cross section of dogs you will see at a field trial today.

My comment you quoted stems from the numerous discussions on RTF in which many (most) seem to feel that the show people only, have “taken the breed to extremes way outside the standard” (paraphrasing). That’s not the way I see it and I offer Ki as an example. Of course, both types have diverged over time, but today's show dogs look more like Ki than today's field trial dogs.

JS
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
2,624 Posts
Mr Booty said:
JS said:
Those who argue today's conformation Goldens depart from the standard, should check out Ki's photo on k9data.
http://www.k9data.com/pedigree.asp?ID=119
JS
The dogs from older lines, pre-Holway Barty were dual purpose. The old bloodlines could work in the field but, not as well as today's Golden. In the pre-Holway Barty era, one could count the successful Goldens throughout FT history on one hand. What Barty brought to the party was a smaller, lighter-boned and narrower frame field dog. Barty get were fast and many were as good in the water as they were on land. Barty is the reason that today's successful FT Goldens look they way that they do and not what they looked like in the early 1970's.
But I don't believe it was Barty's physical attributes alone that made him the dog he was. And I don't buy the notion that the physical makeup of todays show dogs, Goldens, Labs or whatever, is what makes them inferior. Other than some of those with ridiculously profuse coat (which only serves to slow them down in the water), there is nothing that precludes doing the work.
It is the total lack of selection for working traits in their background. The world is full of "smaller, lighter-boned, narrow-framed, fast dogs" That don't give a ratz azz about a dead duck. I got several of them in my neighborhood.
Retrievers are sprinters, not marathoners. And a field trial is not a race. They don't need to be built like pointers to run a 10 minute test. They just need to be conditioned.

It's not what they have that makes them bad; it's what they DON"T have that makes them not good.

JS
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
17,222 Posts
JS said:
But I don't believe it was Barty's physical attributes alone that made him the dog he was. And I don't buy the notion that the physical makeup of todays show dogs, Goldens, Labs or whatever, is what makes them inferior. Other than some of those with ridiculously profuse coat (which only serves to slow them down in the water), there is nothing that precludes doing the work.
It is the total lack of selection for working traits in their background. The world is full of "smaller, lighter-boned, narrow-framed, fast dogs" That don't give a ratz azz about a dead duck. I got several of them in my neighborhood.
Retrievers are sprinters, not marathoners. And a field trial is not a race. They don't need to be built like pointers to run a 10 minute test. They just need to be conditioned.

It's not what they have that makes them bad; it's what they DON"T have that makes them not good.

JS
Barty brought more than just speed. However, it was his speed that attracted many to consider a Golden. Barty did a lot to help eliminate that slow return with bird, that Goldens are known for. Hard to remember that second, third or fourth bird when it takes forever for the dog to get back with the bird. Barty delivered a stylish, sound working dog as evident in NFC AFC Topbrass Cotton. One won't see the old time built Golden in FT today. Today's FT Golden are athletes and look like athelets, not bears. At least the successful ones are.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
319 Posts
Discussion Starter · #20 ·
This thing of interpretation of the breed standard is so interesting. I think that the US even has a standard of its own that is different from the UK standard? We had a discussion of this dog:

http://www.rushhill.com/Pharley/index.html

at a European retriever forum and many thought that this dog looks strange and incorrect in relation to the standard in some aspects.


In Europe the show bred dogs look like this:

Crufts BOS 2006:

http://www.chinnordale.co.uk/dogs/billie/billie.htm

More pics including the BOB:

http://www.taygetosland.gr/html/crufts2006_1.htm


http://www.taygetosland.gr/html/crufts2006_1b.htm

The European FT dogs look like the Goldens in these series of pics (page 1, 2, 3, 7 and 19):

http://www.nickridley.com/2006 EOS/IGL/index.html
 
1 - 20 of 46 Posts
Top